Students to protest

dublincitizen

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It's hardly pedantics. You've claimed the basis for free 3rd level fees is a 'right' to education. I merely ask to what extent this right exists? If, indeed, it is restricted at all?

Since it's the core of your argument, I thought these would be simple questions.
I never claimed that it was the basis for 'free' college education, even though that doesn't exist because fees still exist in the form of a registration tax. I claimed everyone should have access to third level education, and that the reintroduction of fees would prevent some people from accessing college courses, as well as forcing some out of education and onto the dole queue.

I did however claim that education was a right and not a luxury, by right I mean access to, and I stand by that statement.
 


'orebel

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I never said they were stupid. Merely too stupid for University. Most jobs don't require University education. Retail, Manufacturing etc.
Many people who do not have the apptitude for learning lots of inane crap off by heart for the leaving cert are far from stupid.
 

dublincitizen

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Third level education will never be available to everyone. Just those who have the apptitude for it. So thats the "all education is a right" theory out the window.
How does it blow it out the window? I don't understand that at all. Why should uptake justify the level of access?

Now with the state finances under severe pressure why should those who can pay, not pay.
Again, reintroducing fees will not fix that problem.
 

YoungLiberal

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Many people who do not have the apptitude for learning lots of inane crap off by heart for the leaving cert are far from stupid.
Listen, Arts is 360 plus. That's what you need to get in. If you can't manage that, you just aren't that bright. Certainly not bright enough for 3rd level education.

You'd swear the LC was just learning by rote. It clearly isn't, it helps if you're looking to get 600 points. If you're looking to get 360-450, Intelligence and a bit of work on their own will suffice for that.
 

Odyessus

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I'm not interested in debating that, all I care about is opposing the reintroduction of third level fees. The point I was making was that some people would have you believe education is a luxury and should be paid for accordingly, which is just wrong.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. Lecturers, technicians, administrative staff and janitors don't work for nothing, to say nothing of heating and lighting etc.

Calling something a "right" does not make it free. I have a right to live in a mansion in Dalkey.

That does not mean the taxpayer must supply me with said mansion.
 

dublincitizen

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To what level though? If you're throwing rights around, you'll have to define said rights.
ffs. This is what I've said so far, seen as you're incapable of reading:

  • I'm against the reintroduction of third level fees because it would hinder access to third level education for many and force many in third level education out of it.
  • I believe everyone should have access to third level education, and that it should not be treated like a luxury.

What part of that do you not understand? Maybe instead of playing pedantics with my arguements, why don't you tell us all your alternative to free access to third level education?
 

dublincitizen

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There is no such thing as a free lunch. Lecturers, technicians, administrative staff and janitors don't work for nothing, to say nothing of heating and lighting etc.

Calling something a "right" does not make it free. I have a right to live in a mansion in Dalkey.

That does not mean the taxpayer must supply me with said mansion.
Well unlike you I don't equate the right to accessing third level education with owning a mansion in Dalkey, which is, unlike education, a luxury.

And I never dismissed the costs that colleges have to pay. But are you saying colleges couldn't be more efficient with staff productivity and pay? And that councils couldn't increase productivity and cost efficiencies in processing grant applications?
 

YoungLiberal

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ffs. This is what I've said so far, seen as you're incapable of reading:

  • I'm against the reintroduction of third level fees because it would hinder access to third level education for many and force many in third level education out of it.
  • I believe everyone should have access to third level education, and that it should not be treated like a luxury.

What part of that do you not understand? Maybe instead of playing pedantics with my arguements, why don't you tell us all your alternative to free access to third level education?
I'm aware of what you said. However, you seem to be basing your argument on the fact that access to education (not defined) is a right. Yet, you won't tell us how far this 'right' extends.

I'm not against your position per se, merely that it's based on a right, rather than a mere position of policy.
 

TonyBird

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How many graduates do we need anyway ? Has anyone done the numbers ?
I repeat the question .
BTW I dont belive 'third level' should be bowing to the needs of IBEC . However lots of people , like myself at one time , are just pi**ing about in college . Taking places that should go to people with less points but more aptitude .I would have gladly traded my place for a non construction related apprenticeship but there werent any around . There is a massive imbalance in the distribution of resources in regard to training/education .
 

eoghanacht

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There is no such thing as a free lunch. Lecturers, technicians, administrative staff and janitors don't work for nothing, to say nothing of heating and lighting etc.

Calling something a "right" does not make it free. I have a right to live in a mansion in Dalkey.

That does not mean the taxpayer must supply me with said mansion.
Why do you have a right to own a mansion?

The taxpayer is making an investment. Let those who can afford it pay and they will if fees are brought back in, but you condemn those from poorer backgounds
 

'orebel

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'orebel

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Listen, Arts is 360 plus. That's what you need to get in. If you can't manage that, you just aren't that bright. Certainly not bright enough for 3rd level education.

You'd swear the LC was just learning by rote. It clearly isn't, it helps if you're looking to get 600 points. If you're looking to get 360-450, Intelligence and a bit of work on their own will suffice for that.
Listen, getting 600 points in your leaving does not indicate intelligence any more than getting 360 minus does. Nor does it indicate your aptitude for the equivalent course you you do or do not get accepted on.
 

dublincitizen

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I'm aware of what you said. However, you seem to be basing your argument on the fact that access to education (not defined) is a right. Yet, you won't tell us how far this 'right' extends.

I'm not against your position per se, merely that it's based on a right, rather than a mere position of policy.
Right now the registration fee covers as far as an honours degree, and if people want to go further they can. I'm saying that should remain, and that people should not be prevented from accessing third level education by way of college fees, which IMO would be inevitable.

Again as I've said numerous times, the point I was trying to make is that education should not be treated like a luxury.
 

TonyBird

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Im still asking if any of you over educated monkeys have done the numbers .
Has anyone done the f*****ing numbers ?

Young liberal , you are talking rubbish . 'intelligent enough for 3rd level ' me hole !
I was at LIT and im an idiot .
Still ,not as big an idiot as anyone who thought I 'deserved' it .

As Alan Sugar might say " Your're Fired! "
 

YoungLiberal

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Listen, getting 600 points in your leaving does not indicate intelligence any more than getting 360 minus does. Nor does it indicate your aptitude for the equivalent course you you do or do not get accepted on.
:lol:

It clearly does. Listen, the LC clearly didn't go well for you, but to state that there's no relationship between points and intelligence is laughable.

Mind you, I agree on the aptitude front.

Anyway, if it makes you feel any better, I can pretend that the JC, LC, 3rd Level and 4th Level results do not indicate intelligence, but we all know they do.
 

YoungLiberal

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Im still asking if any of you over educated monkeys have done the numbers .
Has anyone done the f*****ing numbers ?

Young liberal , you are talking rubbish . 'intelligent enough for 3rd level ' me hole !
I was at LIT and im an idiot . Still ,not as big an idiot as anyone who thought I 'deserved' it .

As Alan Sugar might say " Your're Fired! "
Well, yeah, that'd stand to reason. I said University, not 3rd level.
 


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