Students to protest

'orebel

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The same thing can be said for you. I've given reasons why I think it wouldn't fix the problem, yet you've given no reason why you think it will. So please, enlighten us all...
No, you've not given one reason.
I never said it would fix the problem. I said it would help. If you can't see how keeping the registration fee in addition to charging full fees to those who can afford it(I mentioned means testing gross income) would help increase funding then no amount of debate from me will help enlighten you.
I also mentioned addressing the enormous waste within the individual intitutions.
 


YoungLiberal

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Right now the registration fee covers as far as an honours degree, and if people want to go further they can. I'm saying that should remain, and that people should not be prevented from accessing third level education by way of college fees, which IMO would be inevitable.

Again as I've said numerous times, the point I was trying to make is that education should not be treated like a luxury.
I've no problem with that argument so long as it is done on a instrumental basis rather than some sort of intrinsic, rights based claim.
 

YoungLiberal

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A degree is a degree. There are actually some IT degrees which would be more respected than those from certain universities.
Eh, DIT, perhaps in some specific fields.

In Business, Accounting, Actuary, Law, Sociology, Medicine, Geography (the areas I have knowledge of) a degree is not a degree. There's a University Degree and then there's an IT Degree/Diploma, which is somewhere between being looked down upon and laughed at.
 

dublincitizen

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No, you've not given one reason.
I never said it would fix the problem. I said it would help. If you can't see how keeping the registration fee in addition to charging full fees to those who can afford it(I mentioned means testing gross income) would help increase funding then no amount of debate from me will help enlighten you.
I also mentioned addressing the enormous waste within the individual intitutions.
Yes I did, and it was a reply to you as well! From page 7:

Reintroducing fees will not fix that problem. Again, the whole basis for reintroducing fees is that not enough money is being taken in from the registration fee, its got nothing to do with some students paying less than they should, or more than they should.
Your arguement wasn't based around increasing funding for colleges, it was about making those who can, pay.

Right now though you'd be an idiot to argue colleges should be given any more funding at a time when they haven't done anything to reduce their own pay levels or increase staff productivity. And thats before even mentioning the huge amount of wastage in councils in processing grant applications, which the government has done nothing to address.
 

TonyBird

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There's a University Degree and then there's an IT Degree/Diploma, which is somewhere between being looked down upon and laughed at.

I can tell from your 'banter' that you are certainly an educated man . Im glad my taxes are being spent on you :rolleyes:
 

YoungLiberal

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I can tell from your 'banter' that you are certainly an educated man . Im glad my taxes are being spent on you :rolleyes:
It's not banter. If you want I could be all PC about it, but that's the reality.

If you want I could pretend LIT is on a par with Trinity. But it wouldn't do anyone any good, would it?

For the record, they are not 'being' spent on me, in any way shape or form.
 

'orebel

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:lol:

It clearly does. Listen, the LC clearly didn't go well for you, but to state that there's no relationship between points and intelligence is laughable.

Mind you, I agree on the aptitude front.

Anyway, if it makes you feel any better, I can pretend that the JC, LC, 3rd Level and 4th Level results do not indicate intelligence, but we all know they do.
Jesus wept, the dáil is full of monkeys with law degrees and accountancy degrees etc whose lack of intelligence is undeniable. I once witnessed a completely incompetent brief manage to get his clients fine increased from €200 to €2000 and his ban upped from six months to 4 years. Getting the points for these courses is clearly not an indication of intelligence.
But if convincing yourself otherwise helps you stroke your needy ego, carry on.:roll:
 

TonyBird

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It's not banter. If you want I could be all PC about it, but that's the reality.

If you want I could pretend LIT is on a par with Trinity. But it wouldn't do anyone any good, would it?
It certainly wouldnt . The thing is , it seems to me , you are saying that 'the system' is fine as it is . I disagree .
 

YoungLiberal

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Jesus wept, the dáil is full of monkeys with law degrees and accountancy degrees etc whose lack of intelligence is undeniable. I once witnessed a completely incompetent brief manage to get his clients fine increased from €200 to €2000 and his ban upped from six months to 4 years. Getting the points for these courses is clearly not an indication of intelligence.
But if convincing yourself otherwise helps you stroke your needy ego, carry on.:roll:
Next time you deal with the courts you should represent yourself, see how you get on. Ditto with medicine/accountancy.

Anyway, I really can't be bothered to deal with the chip on your shoulder.
 

'orebel

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Reintroducing fees will not fix that problem. Again, the whole basis for reintroducing fees is that not enough money is being taken in from the registration fee, its got nothing to do with some students paying less than they should, or more than they should.
Eh? That's not a reason why it won't help fix the problem.
That's repeating the same thing ad nauseum.:roll:
 

dublincitizen

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Eh? That's not a reason why it won't help fix the problem.
That's repeating the same thing ad nauseum.:roll:
lol Your arguement was based around making those who can, pay, and that reintroducing fees would fix the problem of some students not paying enough, and some paying too much.

I feel like I'm repeating myself here:rolleyes:, but again, this will not fix the problem because everyone will pay more under the reintroduction of fees because colleges aren't interested in making those who can, pay, and reducing fees for those who can't, all they want is as much money as they can get.
 

'orebel

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Next time you deal with the courts you should represent yourself, see how you get on. Ditto with medicine/accountancy.

Anyway, I really can't be bothered to deal with the chip on your shoulder.
I'm meeting my legal/medical/accountancy needs just fine thanks.
All that, your ego and the chip on my shoulder is way OT anyway.

My main two points were:
-The huge wastage within the third level institutions should be dealt with.

-Means testing should be introduced based on gross income and fees reintroduced for those deemed capable of paying.

Any thoughts?
 

YoungLiberal

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My main two points were:
-The huge wastage within the third level institutions should be dealt with.

-Means testing should be introduced based on gross income and fees reintroduced for those deemed capable of paying.

Any thoughts?
Sure. With regard to the former, I'd allow for each specific department head to cull their deadwood. Say 20%, with the carrot that they could hire half of that number again. Never going to happen, pie in the sky, but ideally that's what I'd do.

Concurrent to this I'd get rid of some institutions completely, Tipperary IT, Tralee IT, Letterkenny IT. Even with the first course of action, I still would. I'd also merge RCSI, NUIM and DCU.

On the second point, I'd charge fees, not full, but perhaps around 6k, on sliding scale of gross income, with the threshold becoming substantially higher with each subsequent child in 3rd level education.

Finally, I'd increase government funding in the sector, or keep it steady, using money saved from privatising the health system (while maintaing a basic level of health insurance, paid for by the government, which may be topped up)...Did I go too far on that one? *ducks*
 
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Another excuse for a drink in, for the students this time?

The amount of time and resources wasted at third level is mind numbing, and then there's those who have to pay fees and others who find loopholes and get them paid by the grant authorities. A USI person speaking two weeks ago in Maynooth admitted over 50% of students at third level receive a grant! Free education literally.

Interesting those who are actually paying fees currently will lose out in my college next week, because there will only be classes two days of the week thanks to two official days off and one unofficial day off on protest day.

Hardly worth paying for the bus into college that week.
 

Super8

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Finally, I'd increase government funding in the sector, or keep it steady, using money saved from privatising the health system (while maintaing a basic level of health insurance, paid for by the government, which may be topped up)...Did I go too far on that one? *ducks*
As I've long suspected, there is a long term FF/FG plan to privatise health. So what do you know about this plan YL? Which of the usual faces have been tipped off for the juiciest bits and which of TDs and senior civil servants are buying into them while people die?
 

'orebel

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1. Sure. With regard to the former, I'd allow for each specific department head to cull their deadwood. Say 20%, with the carrot that they could hire half of that number again. Never going to happen, pie in the sky, but ideally that's what I'd do.

2. Concurrent to this I'd get rid of some institutions completely, Tipperary IT, Tralee IT, Letterkenny IT. Even with the first course of action, I still would. I'd also merge RCSI, NUIM and DCU.

3. On the second point, I'd charge fees, not full, but perhaps around 6k, on sliding scale of gross income, with the threshold becoming substantially higher with each subsequent child in 3rd level education.

4. Finally, I'd increase government funding in the sector, or keep it steady, using money saved from privatising the health system (while maintaing a basic level of health insurance, paid for by the government, which may be topped up)...Did I go too far on that one? *ducks*
1. Impractical as most if not all the deadwood are permanent. Like you say, never gonna happen. But salaries could be reduced and there's huge wastage regarding budget allocations, suppliers, rentals, building works, nepotism, computer replacement, power and heat etc. The list goes on and on and really needs to be addressed. Savings here would more than account for your 20% deadwood.

2. No probs here. Jeebus. I didn't even know there was a Tipp IT. Also I would lose the NUI tag on Galway, Cork and Dublin. Don't know that it's helped.

3. I would means test it but sounds OK.

4. Funding wouldn't need to be increased if 1 was implemented.
Not so sure about your healthcare proposal. Is this modeled on the Dutch system?
 

cozzy121

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Tiger cubs don't have the bottle to cause too much of a disturbance.
It'll be a tiny march with a few whistles.
 


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