Surely as a mature nation it's time we moved on from the civil war parties of FF/FG ?

Luigi Vampa

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Surely as a mature nation, it is now time we moved on from FF/FG ?

Is it not long overdue that we moved on from these civil war parties ?

The difference between them both is now negligible, same parties, just different sets of cronies.

Let’s face it, their relevance has long since ceased, no one knows what they stand for anymore, and now it's just about cronyism.
 


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You would think so - two centre-right parties with barely a cigarette-paper of ideological difference between them. But we won't move beyond them, because the people are too parochial and tribal to do so. You watch, FF will be reduced to a rump at the next election, but will bounce right back the one after that. Too many people haven't really suffered enough to make reform possible...
 

Tedkins

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I once asked a History and Politics student at TCD for the difference between the parties and she replied "Civil War". I looked at her as if to say, "are you having a laugh?". At which point she laughed. I didn't get another answer though.

So what is it? I'm led to believe they're both centre-right parties essentially and led me to think that a main difference could be simply the coalition partners they're likely to shack up with, leading to a result of FG being more centrist to the FF's centre-right. That's just me thinking out loud though.

Perhaps the current situation will bring in more of a left-right divide in Irish politics, as I understand it Labour top the polls but most commentators still seem to think an FG/Labour coalition is most likely from what I've read so are things really going to move on and is this upsurge in Labour support simply a blip in political history?

I ask as something of an outsider looking in.
 

Tough Paddy

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Surely as a mature nation, it is now time we moved on from FF/FG ?

Is it not long overdue that we moved on from these civil war parties ?

The difference between them both is now negligible, same parties, just different sets of cronies.

Let’s face it, their relevance has long since ceased, no one knows what they stand for anymore, and now it's just about cronyism.
:rolleyes: Surely as a mature individual (one would hope so), is it now time you moved on from starting ridiculous threads?
 

RobB

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I wouldn't consider FF to be a centre-right party. I agree that they are not a left wing party either - they in my opinion have a make it up as you go along approach as you can see from their recent coalition partners. They went from centre right PD coalition partners to left of centre greens with no internal discussion as to why. The reason for the move was purely to secure political power
 

Cruimh

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Surely as a mature nation, it is now time we moved on from FF/FG ?

Is it not long overdue that we moved on from these civil war parties ?

The difference between them both is now negligible, same parties, just different sets of cronies.

Let’s face it, their relevance has long since ceased, no one knows what they stand for anymore, and now it's just about cronyism.
Can you explain what you mean by "mature nation" ?
 

Tedkins

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Well presumably the 26 counties "require" the Orange Order no more than the 6 do.
 

Cabbage/Turnip

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I wouldn't consider FF to be a centre-right party. I agree that they are not a left wing party either - they in my opinion have a make it up as you go along approach as you can see from their recent coalition partners. They went from centre right PD coalition partners to left of centre greens with no internal discussion as to why. The reason for the move was purely to secure political power
+100 nailed in one in my opinion anything to maintain the wage package and to shut the poeple up that got them to that wage packet
 

Edo

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Jaysis - not another one of these threads.

So as a "mature" person - are you going to offer an "alternative"?

For a start - you could form the "Keyboard Warrior alliance" - for those who prefer to pontificate rather do any thing in real life cos thats a bit like hard work - you might have to make a commitment or two, talk to real people face to face and come out from behind the mask of a username.

You should get a great followin around this joint.
 

Panopticon

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What's the difference between UK Labour and Tories, really?

The tendency since 1989 has been towards more political centrism, not less, across the democratic world.
 

Luigi Vampa

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Jaysis - not another one of these threads.

So as a "mature" person - are you going to offer an "alternative"?

For a start - you could form the "Keyboard Warrior alliance" - for those who prefer to pontificate rather do any thing in real life cos thats a bit like hard work - you might have to make a commitment or two, talk to real people face to face and come out from behind the mask of a username.

You should get a great followin around this joint.
I see you capitulated the argument already by resorting to argumentum ad hominem.
 

borntorum

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If you read about modern European political history, it's striking how often major parties merge, fold and/or are re-constituted depending on the circumstances and the situation. Unfortunately it is one of the symptoms of the morbid grip that history has on our collective consciousness that our primary political divide is still based on a 90 year old dispute that has no relevance to the modern world. If FF is utterly destroyed in the next election, you might see moves towards a general realignment. But if (as I suspect) they limp on into the next Dail with the nucleus of a decent sized parliamentary party, they will bide their time and the old civil war nonsense will re-assert itself
 

Tedkins

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What's the difference between UK Labour and Tories, really?

The tendency since 1989 has been towards more political centrism, not less, across the democratic world.
Oh quite a lot I think, and heightened by the economic crisis in the UK too with the drastically different approaches to deficit reduction. The Labour Government also inclreased investment in public services dramatically and pursued policies of redistribution through, for example, tax credits and even the minmium wage. Constitutionally as well things like devolution and House of Lords and to a lesser extent electoral reform marked out dividing lines between the parties as well. Labour have become more centrist, undoubtedly, but I wouls say they still remain centre-left with the Tories being centre-right and, at times, just pure right. Attitudes to the EU would provide another dividing line, although there are of course splits within both parties.
 

oggy

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Just for the record I do not vote FF because of the long ago Civil War. In fact I could argue easily I vote no so much for FF but AGAINST the core of FG which I see as right wing extreme. Lets face it, if one is extreme left or right its certainly not FF one would vote for ! How do you think FF has won so many elections and so often, its the 300k to 500k who decide elections mainly and as they are usually intelligent people its natural they swing to FF
 

Trophonius

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I once asked a History and Politics student at TCD for the difference between the parties and she replied "Civil War". I looked at her as if to say, "are you having a laugh?". At which point she laughed. I didn't get another answer though.

So what is it? I'm led to believe they're both centre-right parties essentially and led me to think that a main difference could be simply the coalition partners they're likely to shack up with, leading to a result of FG being more centrist to the FF's centre-right. That's just me thinking out loud though.

Perhaps the current situation will bring in more of a left-right divide in Irish politics, as I understand it Labour top the polls but most commentators still seem to think an FG/Labour coalition is most likely from what I've read so are things really going to move on and is this upsurge in Labour support simply a blip in political history?

I ask as something of an outsider looking in.
FG would be traditionally counted as more right than FF. Lately though FF just go with whatever way the wind blows. The student was right, the difference between the two is the Civil War. I find it absurd and would much prefer if this county went to a right/left divide and give us a clear option. But the majority of people are centre-right (as are most people in the 'western world'). Therefore, FF and FG have always dominated politics here, through history and policy.

FF have been in coalition with Labour before and FG were in a coalition with Labour and Democratic Left (who evolved from the Workers Party). In 1948 they were also in government with Labour as well as Clann na Talmhan (evolved form FF). So as you see either party will do whatever deal it needs to do to get into power.
 

wombat

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Another poor FF/FG attempt at censorship via argumentum ad hominem.
Nothing to do with censorship, just another tedious history thread:lol:
 


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