Swirly pipes save the world

EvotingMachine0197

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Well, the bullet in the barrell is a stability thing. The rifling spins the bullet, and the resulting angular inertia or whatever keeps the bullet true. You might be onto something there Auditor.
 


bagel

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Auditor #9 said:
Colada said:
Isn't this idea fundamentally the same as introducing 'rifling' in a pipe? I read somewhere that major blood vessels in the body have a form of 'natural rifling' which cuts drag.
Maybe rifling pipes is expensive - but corkscrewing can be done cheaper?
There's something in this - while I was in Burger King today I was reading how spinning footballs also travel differently than non-spinning ones due to little vortexes - ah, it's too complex to go into now.

Anyway, the rifled bullet does travel differently due to interaction with the air as it travels in a spinning motion - straighter and probably faster. Could this be the same with water in the pipe/the bullet in the barrel/the fig in the figroll?
and the pig in the poke???
 

CookieMonster

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Ard-Taoiseach said:
Not backward-forward!

Not forward-upward!

And swirling, swirling into a bright new future!

:D :D :D
I wanted to put that in my speech on Thursday but they draughted some bloody Ambassador in to do it in my place. Perhaps owing to my stated aim of using that in my speech.

Feckers.
 

ibis

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There's a good article on this here. Essentially, the take-away points are at the bottom:

* By using helical instead of straight pipes it is possible to keep entrained gas bubbles in the centres of flows instead of their forming slugs

* Deposition of solids is also prevented

* Mixing and heat transfer are greatly improved
* No mechanics are required and cost is trivial

Basically, the helical ppipes keep whatever fluid is in them mixed - the analogy is with human arteries, which "swirl" to help prevent blood clotting. The major applications are places where you're dealing with either mixed fluids (in which case the swirling motion keeps them mixed) or fluids carrying gas or sediment mixed in. Overall, I'd assume that helical piping would give, as riven says, somewhat more shear (slightly slower flow through somewhat longer pipes), but I think that's probably more than compensated for by the mixing effect in the right applications.

Pipes carrying mixed fluids need an extra impeller to keep everything mixed - these pipes don't.

Pipes carrying fluid with entrained sediment currently need to be pumped at high speed to prevent the sediment settling out in the pipe and clogging it - the mixing effect here keeps the sediment from settling out at much lower speeds.

In the case of entrained gas, which is a specific application the company is working on, the gas would usually rise to the top of a straight near-horizontal pipe to form long bubbles ('slugs') which can cause knocking and problems at joints/junctions, whereas here the swirling motion keeps the gas bubbles at the centre of the flow (think bubbles in a swirling bucket), so separating out the gas is much easier.

These are all industrial applications, but the sediment one would be appropriate (probably) for small-scale wells where sediment clogging is a problem (fine esker sand aquifers?).

Given that an awful lot of industrial processes would have large-scale fluid problems of the kinds this piping addresses, they would certainly go some way towards reducing the energy requirements of industry. It all helps.
 

Satan

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If these pipes help combat global warming, then I am all for them.
 

ibis

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Auditor #9 said:
Any thoughts on how pumps work less when pumping liquid through these pipes instead of straight ones (O Lord of Darkness)? I don't think you mention this, ibis.
Largely because I don't see that it's the case! The fairly technical article I linked to doesn't actually mention it...or rather, it mentions it only in terms of lowered loss of pressure in seabed gas/water risers, where the formation of large compressible bubbles of gas mean the pump has to work harder. Since this piping suppresses the formation of those bubbles, the pump pressure can be reduced - but it's nothing to do with the fluid itself travelling faster or easier through the pipes.
 

riven

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ibis said:
There's a good article on this here. Essentially, the take-away points are at the bottom:

* By using helical instead of straight pipes it is possible to keep entrained gas bubbles in the centres of flows instead of their forming slugs

* Deposition of solids is also prevented

* Mixing and heat transfer are greatly improved
* No mechanics are required and cost is trivial
Interesting but I am not convinced.
While I alluded that mass transfer would be increased (which also means heat ransfer), I still have a problem with the flow dynamics and the pumping requirements.
A further problem is how 1 and two are achieved. The gas migrating to the middle of the pipe is understandable (heavier liquid is flung to the outside) but sediment should act in the opposite manner if the fluid is centrifuged unless really high velocities are used.
Further problmes involve large scale pipes and boundary layers. But the biggie I think will be corrosion especially if it is used in fouling/sedimentation pipe. Ever see the inside of a sand water pipe, nasty. The bends/swirls will just offer more area for corrosion/contact.

The mixing applications are certainly interesting (if it can be done without a pump i.e. verticle arrangement) but for normal pumping applications... I doubt it.
 

ibis

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riven said:
ibis said:
There's a good article on this here. Essentially, the take-away points are at the bottom:

* By using helical instead of straight pipes it is possible to keep entrained gas bubbles in the centres of flows instead of their forming slugs

* Deposition of solids is also prevented

* Mixing and heat transfer are greatly improved
* No mechanics are required and cost is trivial
Interesting but I am not convinced.
While I alluded that mass transfer would be increased (which also means heat ransfer), I still have a problem with the flow dynamics and the pumping requirements.
A further problem is how 1 and two are achieved. The gas migrating to the middle of the pipe is understandable (heavier liquid is flung to the outside) but sediment should act in the opposite manner if the fluid is centrifuged unless really high velocities are used.
Further problmes involve large scale pipes and boundary layers. But the biggie I think will be corrosion especially if it is used in fouling/sedimentation pipe. Ever see the inside of a sand water pipe, nasty. The bends/swirls will just offer more area for corrosion/contact.
I assume so - in fact one of the applications they're touting is pipe scouring, which suggests you're completely right. I guess it depends on whether scouring or clogging is more of an issue - presumably this piping would offer an advantage where the latter is the case.

riven said:
The mixing applications are certainly interesting (if it can be done without a pump i.e. verticle arrangement) but for normal pumping applications... I doubt it.
I think the 'green' press releases on the subject, when compared to the technical ones, offer a very good example of the dangers of journalistic accounts of technical subjects. It's not quite wrong, but the emphasis is misleading, and as journalist reads and copies journalist, that subtly wrong emphasis comes to dominate the information.
 

riven

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I agree. It is funny but I will be contacting them. I have an application in membrane technology for such a swirly design but it is entrenched in improving mass transfer rather than reducing pumping costs (which will probably rise).

I wonder would it be useful for dialysis machines??
 

Auditor #9

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ibis said:
riven said:
ibis said:
There's a good article on this here. Essentially, the take-away points are at the bottom:

* By using helical instead of straight pipes it is possible to keep entrained gas bubbles in the centres of flows instead of their forming slugs

* Deposition of solids is also prevented

* Mixing and heat transfer are greatly improved
* No mechanics are required and cost is trivial
Interesting but I am not convinced.
While I alluded that mass transfer would be increased (which also means heat ransfer), I still have a problem with the flow dynamics and the pumping requirements.
A further problem is how 1 and two are achieved. The gas migrating to the middle of the pipe is understandable (heavier liquid is flung to the outside) but sediment should act in the opposite manner if the fluid is centrifuged unless really high velocities are used.
Further problmes involve large scale pipes and boundary layers. But the biggie I think will be corrosion especially if it is used in fouling/sedimentation pipe. Ever see the inside of a sand water pipe, nasty. The bends/swirls will just offer more area for corrosion/contact.
I assume so - in fact one of the applications they're touting is pipe scouring, which suggests you're completely right. I guess it depends on whether scouring or clogging is more of an issue - presumably this piping would offer an advantage where the latter is the case.

riven said:
The mixing applications are certainly interesting (if it can be done without a pump i.e. verticle arrangement) but for normal pumping applications... I doubt it.
I think the 'green' press releases on the subject, when compared to the technical ones, offer a very good example of the dangers of journalistic accounts of technical subjects. It's not quite wrong, but the emphasis is misleading, and as journalist reads and copies journalist, that subtly wrong emphasis comes to dominate the information.
So, you've both come to the conclusion that these twisty pipes

*reduce corrosion (once there is something abrasive in the fluid?)
*mix fluids with different energies, densities and viscosities quicker and more thoroughly than straight ones
*have no impact on pumping energy required to move liquids inside

Riven, in the second point above, dialysis machines use this already, no? or blood plasma machines (or any machines) which need to seperate different qualities of fluid?

But you will get the chance to test the last point with your own eyes, riven - whether or not there is a difference in pumping energy required? and so you can tell us if this new fandangle is a small fat lie. Or not.
 

EvotingMachine0197

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And in the second last paragraph of the link given by Ibis, the passive mixing can contribute to a reduction in the required process temperature, which is certainly going to save energy.

It would appear that by accomodating the way fluids want to flow naturally, there is a range of benefits to be had. Cool.
 

riven

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Auditor #9 said:
*reduce corrosion (once there is something abrasive in the fluid?)
*mix fluids with different energies, densities and viscosities quicker and more thoroughly than straight ones
*have no impact on pumping energy required to move liquids inside

Riven, in the second point above, dialysis machines use this already, no? or blood plasma machines (or any machines) which need to seperate different qualities of fluid?

But you will get the chance to test the last point with your own eyes, riven - whether or not there is a difference in pumping energy required? and so you can tell us if this new fandangle is a small fat lie. Or not.
The first two yes but the third one is probably not true for all cases.

[dialysis machines] I am not sure. I always assumed that there was a membrane unit rather than a swirly pipe arrangement. Might also be useful to simulate blood flow in the artifical blood circulators used when your heart stops.

[test] Perhaps. I will certainly add the idea to my proposals but incoperating a swirly design into a membrane separation decvice is not going to be easy. As far as verifying or not, dont expect that to come form me anytime soon.
 

ibis

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Hmm. There may be some minor advantage in terms of suppressing turbulence through increasing the "organisation" of the fluid in the pipe (in other words, because it is already swirling it may be less prone to becoming turbulent) - which should reduce pump pressure requirements in certain environments. I'd really have to dig away at that for a while, though.
 

st333ve

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This will change the world :shock: , swirly pipes to swirly straws to swirly shaped garden hoses and kitchen taps, swirly exhausts on your car.
The straight pipe will be a thing of the past!

Another great simple invention i saw lately was non stick glass.
The glass surface copies the texture of the water lilly and no water dirt or anything will sit on the glass.
Would be perfect for tall buildings and cars.
 

EvotingMachine0197

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st333ve said:
This will change the world :shock: , swirly pipes to swirly straws to swirly shaped garden hoses and kitchen taps, swirly exhausts on your car.
The straight pipe will be a thing of the past!

Another great simple invention i saw lately was non stick glass.
The glass surface copies the texture of the water lilly and no water dirt or anything will sit on the glass.
Would be perfect for tall buildings and cars.
Except frogs maybe..
 
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I remember reading a couple years back about a type of paint that had been developed which could withstand ultra high tempratures. In fact, when they tested a lazer on it, it ruined the lazer because it completely reflected the beam back on to the lazer itself - all this from paint a few microns thick.
This invention has been the holy grail of chemical research for more than fifty years. Teams of scientists in the world's greatest industrial and defence laboratories have poured billions of pounds and hundreds of man-years into the search for such a substance.
And the inventor? A hairdresser from Blackburn who concocted it up in his garden shed.
 


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