Swirly pipes save the world

ibis

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ectoraige said:
So, to the important issue - what impact do McDonalds Twisty Fries (TM) have on carbon emission levels?
They make you fatter, and when you get fatter you drive places rather than walk. Definitely part of the problem.
 


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ectoraige said:
So, to the important issue - what impact do McDonalds Twisty Fries (TM) have on carbon emission levels?
Harmful I would of thought? Twisty fries have a much poorer 'fries to chipfryer' ratio due to their inherent space-wasting twistyness.
 

riven

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A guy called Dave said:
I remember reading a couple years back about a type of paint that had been developed which could withstand ultra high tempratures. In fact, when they tested a lazer on it, it ruined the lazer because it completely reflected the beam back on to the lazer itself - all this from paint a few microns thick.
This invention has been the holy grail of chemical research for more than fifty years. Teams of scientists in the world's greatest industrial and defence laboratories have poured billions of pounds and hundreds of man-years into the search for such a substance.
And the inventor? A hairdresser from Blackburn who concocted it up in his garden shed.
Plastics were a complete mistake. dont have the link :|
 
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riven said:
A guy called Dave said:
I remember reading a couple years back about a type of paint that had been developed which could withstand ultra high tempratures. In fact, when they tested a lazer on it, it ruined the lazer because it completely reflected the beam back on to the lazer itself - all this from paint a few microns thick.
This invention has been the holy grail of chemical research for more than fifty years. Teams of scientists in the world's greatest industrial and defence laboratories have poured billions of pounds and hundreds of man-years into the search for such a substance.
And the inventor? A hairdresser from Blackburn who concocted it up in his garden shed.
Plastics were a complete mistake. dont have the link :|
I didn't know? It seemed pretty credible. I know he's knocked back NASA because they wouldn't sign a non-disclosure agreement but he did have an ex-ICI chemical research head look at it and he give it the thumbs up.
 

riven

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Now I meant i dont have a link to the plastics story. Also a similar story to the aeorgels.
 

Auditor #9

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ibis said:
Hmm. There may be some minor advantage in terms of suppressing turbulence through increasing the "organisation" of the fluid in the pipe (in other words, because it is already swirling it may be less prone to becoming turbulent) - which should reduce pump pressure requirements in certain environments. I'd really have to dig away at that for a while, though.
To me this sounds the most likely. Turbulence and resistence have been mentioned all along and turbulence in this case is the resistence of the fluid against itself. I'd still reckon it's like the water pouring from the neck of the bottle at an angle - otherwise you get interference from the air. Organisation organisation organisation.

Probably tiny difference though in the pumping energy required but possibly less noise. I wonder if rifling the pipes would lead to the same effect? One of you feckers will patent this before I do. If you make a few bob will you take us all out to McDonalds so we can sample the twisty fries?
 

riven

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No turbulance is not resistance. Turbulence depends on a number of things. But if I simplify.
Water moving through a pipe fast is turbulent flow
Laminar flow is when the water moves slowly.

Depending on how you set up your equipment, laminar or turbulent flow may be benificial. What would be benificial is if we could push the turbulemt flow region into lower velocities. That means less power fro mixing. Which is probably one of the things they are aiming at
 

Auditor #9

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Is turbulence in fluids not a noisy, energetic activity of the fluid, pushing against itself or pushing against whatever it can? If so, would turbulence not look like resistance? The water coming from the bottle neck at different angles and thus at different speeds could be construed as a form of friction against the air, could it not? I'm not going to start mentioning phlogiston or the ether any time soon I just believe that turbulence in the fluid would slow it down, true or false? And that lack of turbulence (more organised flow) would be like having a lowered resistance.

Still think angular velocity has some part to play too.
 

riven

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Turbulence is essentially randon/noisy flow. But to generate it you have to be going very fast so in comparison to the other frictional forces (viscous and wall etc) I would say its resistance is small.

Anyway the point is turbulence is not always bad and can be controlled pretty easily (smaller pump or bigger pipe). What these pipes seem to do is allow turbulent flow to occur at lower velocities of fluid (smaller pump) at the cost of pipe frictional losses. (I think that is the first thing I have said that makes me understand what they are trying to do). Usually the frictional losses win out (i.e. using rough pipes instead of smooth pipes is bad) but their design might overcome this. I am starting to see perhaps where they are coming from. I doubt you will see these pipes in your radiator systems but it could certainly revolutionalise (use with caution) the chemical industry for reactions.

(An example of a similar idea is/was used for certain explosives. They used to be made in large reactors but they often blew up because of poor temperaure control and poor mixing (due to laminar flow). The process was converted to a highly turbulent process where the mixture flows laminarily and hits an object, becomes turbulent and reacts and mixes. The flow was so fast that all this could be done in a pipe rather than a reactor = good temperature control. An even if a explosion happened, it was small (pipe sized rather than reactor sized))

As for angular velocity, maybe but in a large scale/dense region I would say boundary layer (BL) effects would cancel this though there is a possibility that the BL would become smaller which would help.
Certainly would have an effect in the non dense applications (gaseous, vacuum, molecular)
 

soubresauts

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This reminds me of the Austrian inventor Viktor Schauberger (1885-1958) who specialized in solving water flow problems. See here, for example.
The inventor has discovered that when a certain kind of turbulence happens in flowing water, then a temperature difference takes place within it, producing also a difference in the water speed, and that this happens especially in Waltz-like flows.

It is known that to hinder sedimentation, water channels and tubes are built of circular cross-section, so that the flowing medium may drag with itself any sediments left; this is to provoke a screw-like movement of water so that it may attract all particles in its path.
Schauberger might have achieved more -- or his achievements might be better known -- if he hadn't had the misfortune to come to the attention of first the Nazis, and later certain U.S. military-industrial interests. At the very least, Schauberger showed that science has a long way to go in understanding flow dynamics and water phenomena.

Much has been written about Schauberger; perhaps the most informative book is Living Energies by Callum Coats.
 

riven

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The temperature differences are linked to viscosity and density. Decreasing these will increase the speed of the fluid by reducing the viscous forces. I am not sure what he means by 'certain type of turbulence' but interesting all the same.
 

riven

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nail like water?? Screw I understand: see archemides (spelling) screw
 

ibis

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soubresauts said:
This reminds me of the Austrian inventor Viktor Schauberger (1885-1958) who specialized in solving water flow problems. See here, for example.
The inventor has discovered that when a certain kind of turbulence happens in flowing water, then a temperature difference takes place within it, producing also a difference in the water speed, and that this happens especially in Waltz-like flows.

It is known that to hinder sedimentation, water channels and tubes are built of circular cross-section, so that the flowing medium may drag with itself any sediments left; this is to provoke a screw-like movement of water so that it may attract all particles in its path.
Schauberger might have achieved more -- or his achievements might be better known -- if he hadn't had the misfortune to come to the attention of first the Nazis, and later certain U.S. military-industrial interests. At the very least, Schauberger showed that science has a long way to go in understanding flow dynamics and water phenomena.

Much has been written about Schauberger; perhaps the most informative book is Living Energies by Callum Coats.
Why am I not surprised?

Chapter 15 DRINKING WATER SUPPLY

The Consequences of Chlorination and Fluoridation
The Springwater Producing Device
The Storage of Water
 

Auditor #9

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riven said:
nail like water?? Screw I understand: see archemides (spelling) screw
er, I was pushing the analogy a bit. What do you call it? Straight water? It's a visual analogy anyway so I can push it :p

A screw of water is an excellent visual analogy isn't it?

(How many times do we have to mention the word screw to get it as a tag above?)
 

riven

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What is my name up there hehe?

I think maybe you mean pushing the water by a screw or by a flat plunger to produce a straight flow?

Depends on application. Most pumps are impeller centrifual. However for high pressure PD pumps are needed and these are often of the plunger and screw type.
Also gas pumps especially vacuum pumps tend to be interlocking gears or turbines. Depends on application
 

Auditor #9

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riven said:
I think maybe you mean pushing the water by a screw or by a flat plunger to produce a straight flow?
No. The water itself moves with a screw-like motion. Like a little roller coaster of water inside the pipe, like a little twisting cyclone inside the pipe. In some way, the water moving like this might be easier to keep moving hence the lower energy required to push it.

What is my name up there hehe?
I should count the instances of your name, must be linked to how many times a word is mentioned. McDonalds isn't there yet, but if we keep talking about twisty fries ...
 

ibis

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riven said:
What is my name up there hehe?

I think maybe you mean pushing the water by a screw or by a flat plunger to produce a straight flow?

Depends on application. Most pumps are impeller centrifual. However for high pressure PD pumps are needed and these are often of the plunger and screw type.
Also gas pumps especially vacuum pumps tend to be interlocking gears or turbines. Depends on application
No, I think Auditor means literally the rotating flow in a pipe by "screw like motion". BTW, "Archimedes".

I would presume that because the path any given water molecule has to travel is necessarily longer both in a helical pipe, and if the water inside the pipe is itself rotating, the flow is necessarily going to be slower, despite the intuitive feeling that it could be faster.

Remind me, why do they shape sinks and baths so that the water swirls?
 

soubresauts

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Auditor #9 said:
Have you any thoughts on how the screw-like movement of water may/would/might/could require less energy to push or pump than, er, nail-like water?
I have no expertise in that area, but I'd say that scientists are far from reaching consensus about how such things happen.

For financial reasons, there's probably much more research being done on how the dimples on a golf ball make it fly further, yet there's no consensus there either.

So many mysteries... As far as I know, there isn't even a comprehensive scientific explanation of why and how ice forms.
 

Auditor #9

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ibis said:
"Archimedes"

I would presume that because the path any given water molecule has to travel is necessarily longer both in a helical pipe, and if the water inside the pipe is itself rotating, the flow is necessarily going to be slower, despite the intuitive feeling that it could be faster.

Remind me, why do they shape sinks and baths so that the water swirls?
Glad someone brought it down to molecular level (we'll be talking about quarks on Thursday). Capillary action? - the water runs along a path laid out before it for itself...?? Or, less force between molecules because of the shape which the water takes (a helix) positions the molecules farther away from each other than they would be in a tube hence less force, though granted the water takes longer to push. And time is energy anyway so we gain nothing.
 


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