Swirly pipes save the world

EvotingMachine0197

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Some of the previous posts have brought my brain back round to stability. Auditor's rotating bullet, the notion of angular inertia and the gyroscopic stuff.


What about this : if I roll two bicycle wheels with the same force, one of them buckled and one of them true, I would expect the buckled wheel to travel less far. Why? I suspect the buckle will introduce an inertial inefficiency so the good wheel will roll further. No?
Anyone know what I'm on about ?:roll: This is the trouble when one can only view the world through electrical analogies.
 


ibis

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EvotingMachine0197 said:
Some of the previous posts have brought my brain back round to stability. Auditor's rotating bullet, the notion of angular inertia and the gyroscopic stuff.


What about this : if I roll two bicycle wheels with the same force, one of them buckled and one of them true, I would expect the buckled wheel to travel less far. Why? I suspect the buckle will introduce an inertial inefficiency so the good wheel will roll further. No?
Anyone know what I'm on about ?:roll: This is the trouble when one can only view the world through electrical analogies.
Electrical analogies? I thought you were digital?

The spin on a bullet imparted by rifling provides additional stability in flight - hence greater accuracy and longer ranges. It's hard to see how that applies to fluid in a pipe?
 

Auditor #9

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EvotingMachine0197 said:
Some of the previous posts have brought my brain back round to stability. Auditor's rotating bullet, the notion of angular inertia and the gyroscopic stuff.


What about this : if I roll two bicycle wheels with the same force, one of them buckled and one of them true, I would expect the buckled wheel to travel less far. Why? I suspect the buckle will introduce an inertial inefficiency so the good wheel will roll further. No?
Anyone know what I'm on about ?:roll: This is the trouble when one can only view the world through electrical analogies.
At least you don't see the world through electoral analogies. :|

I think you're bringing gravity into it with the twisted wheel analogy but I'm not sure. Gravity will try to bring the wheel down anyway, it's helping the downward pressure already by being buckled.

Amazing that we haven't been kicked off this thread yet.
 

ibis

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Auditor #9 said:
EvotingMachine0197 said:
Some of the previous posts have brought my brain back round to stability. Auditor's rotating bullet, the notion of angular inertia and the gyroscopic stuff.


What about this : if I roll two bicycle wheels with the same force, one of them buckled and one of them true, I would expect the buckled wheel to travel less far. Why? I suspect the buckle will introduce an inertial inefficiency so the good wheel will roll further. No?
Anyone know what I'm on about ?:roll: This is the trouble when one can only view the world through electrical analogies.
At least you don't see the world through electoral analogies. :|

I think you're bringing gravity into it with the twisted wheel analogy but I'm not sure. Gravity will try to bring the wheel down anyway, it's helping the downward pressure already by being buckled.

Amazing that we haven't been kicked off this thread yet.
I think we're actually still on topic!
 

Auditor #9

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ibis said:
The spin on a bullet imparted by rifling provides additional stability in flight - hence greater accuracy and longer ranges. It's hard to see how that applies to fluid in a pipe?
Colada mentioned rifling - he might have been irked at someone at the time. 'Longer ranges' sounds like you're getting more bang for your buck by rifling your barrel - is that not what we want with our screw shaped water? Push it farther for less?
 

EvotingMachine0197

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ibis said:
EvotingMachine0197 said:
Some of the previous posts have brought my brain back round to stability. Auditor's rotating bullet, the notion of angular inertia and the gyroscopic stuff.


What about this : if I roll two bicycle wheels with the same force, one of them buckled and one of them true, I would expect the buckled wheel to travel less far. Why? I suspect the buckle will introduce an inertial inefficiency so the good wheel will roll further. No?
Anyone know what I'm on about ?:roll: This is the trouble when one can only view the world through electrical analogies.
Electrical analogies? I thought you were digital?

The spin on a bullet imparted by rifling provides additional stability in flight - hence greater accuracy and longer ranges. It's hard to see how that applies to fluid in a pipe?
What I'm trying to say (hypothesise) is that, objects / fluids in motion will naturally find the most efficient way of conducting same motion. And maybe the most efficient type of motion also happens to be the most mechanically stable motion.

So by pumping stuff down a straight tube (artificial), are we depriving the substance in motion of it's natural tendancy to move more efficiently ? This thread is going to end up in tears.
 

Auditor #9

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EvotingMachine0197 said:
So by pumping stuff down a straight tube (artificial), are we depriving the substance in motion of it's natural tendancy to move more efficiently ? This thread is going to end up in tears.
Yes exactly but how and why should water (or any fluid?) have that property? (We're making massive assumptions of course - that there is an energy saving at all from the process. We're probably using up most of the savings by posting on this thread. We could just email em)
 

ibis

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Auditor #9 said:
ibis said:
The spin on a bullet imparted by rifling provides additional stability in flight - hence greater accuracy and longer ranges. It's hard to see how that applies to fluid in a pipe?
Colada mentioned rifling - he might have been irked at someone at the time. 'Longer ranges' sounds like you're getting more bang for your buck by rifling your barrel - is that not what we want with our screw shaped water? Push it farther for less?
No, the rifled bullet gains what we might call 'gyroscopic' stability - and is less likely to veer. A bullet, though, is a fairly blunt object travelling rapidly through another medium (air) - it can be expected to be deflected.

EvotingMachine said:
What I'm trying to say (hypothesise) is that, objects / fluids in motion will naturally find the most efficient way of conducting same motion. And maybe the most efficient type of motion also happens to be the most mechanically stable motion.

So by pumping stuff down a straight tube (artificial), are we depriving the substance in motion of it's natural tendancy to move more efficiently ? This thread is going to end up in tears.
Possibly - and those tears will flow quite naturally straight down our cheeks unless deflected by obstacles.

The 'natural path' of a moving water molecule is in a straight line - as it is for absolutely any body in motion. The most efficient flow regime is laminar flow, which is why under most circumstances you try to minimise turbulence in flowing fluids.

The only potential efficiency gain I would see here would be where piping goes round corners. The problem with corners in pipes is the fluid effectively slams into the corner and loses speed, before starting off again at ninety degrees. If the corner were instead a helical twist, that might be more efficient.
 

st333ve

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Why didnt I think of this!!!!!

Pipe + twist= energy saving
 

EvotingMachine0197

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Auditor #9 said:
EvotingMachine0197 said:
Some of the previous posts have brought my brain back round to stability. Auditor's rotating bullet, the notion of angular inertia and the gyroscopic stuff.


What about this : if I roll two bicycle wheels with the same force, one of them buckled and one of them true, I would expect the buckled wheel to travel less far. Why? I suspect the buckle will introduce an inertial inefficiency so the good wheel will roll further. No?
Anyone know what I'm on about ?:roll: This is the trouble when one can only view the world through electrical analogies.
At least you don't see the world through electoral analogies. :|

I think you're bringing gravity into it with the twisted wheel analogy but I'm not sure. Gravity will try to bring the wheel down anyway, it's helping the downward pressure already by being buckled.

Amazing that we haven't been kicked off this thread yet.
Not gravity Auditor. In fact, gravity is a sore point with me.

I'm thinking more about the forces, for instance, in a regular car where wheels are imbalanced. In this case, the wheel imbalance causes mechanical forces to be transmitted to other parts of the car, eventually resulting in excessive wear of hub bearings, tyres, brake pads and in bad front wheel cases, power steering pump failure. Effectively, the imbalanced wheel has become inefficient at it's job - moving the car forward. The wasted energy is being absorbed by other components (e.g. steering wheel vibration), which they were not designed for, resulting in their demise.

So, while the above mechanical description gives an intuitive example of 'motion can be inefficient', it's not so intuitive with fluids.

However, I have definitely come round to the opinion that, just like wheels, fluids can move inefficiently also. And just like wheels, there is no doubt a way to tune out the energy losses.
 

Auditor #9

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I'm too zapped to understand your last point (I spent the last two hours googling helical water flow to no avail - have to subscribe to some scientists site ($25 for 24 hours, no way ho-zay) which might give me a clue)

However from your post, I know I'm getting my wheel balancing done as soon as possible :shock:

The End
 

EvotingMachine0197

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Auditor #9 said:
I'm too zapped to understand your last point (I spent the last two hours googling helical water flow to no avail - have to subscribe to some scientists site ($25 for 24 hours, no way ho-zay) which might give me a clue)

However from your post, I know I'm getting my wheel balancing done as soon as possible :shock:

The End
:lol: Swirly night A#9.
 

Auditor #9

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ibis said:
Remind me, why do they shape sinks and baths so that the water swirls?
Maybe they don't? Water running into drains gets deflected left or right according to the earth's rotation.

The wiki Coriolis Effect entry, and a USA Today explanation.


EvotingMachine0197 said:
So, while the above mechanical description gives an intuitive example of 'motion can be inefficient', it's not so intuitive with fluids.

However, I have definitely come round to the opinion that, just like wheels, fluids can move inefficiently also. And just like wheels, there is no doubt a way to tune out the energy losses.
I slept on it and came up with this: maybe a body of water has a wavelength? No pun intended. Tuning, wavelengths and harmonics...maybe not.
 

riven

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Ok.

First sinks make that water swirl to help it drain to a single point (something swirling in a circle without input of energy will eventually end up at the centre point)

Rifling: Remember a bullet is solid and water is a liquid. It will just cause turbulence like a roung pipe. There will be some increase in velocity but the friction increases will outweigh.

Efficient path: See mean free path for molecules. The most efficient path is a straight line. This will happen perfectly at 0 K (impossible).

Capiliary action: Using this is not one for pumping purposes with current technology. First the pipes have to be very small and then linked to a resevoir etc etc. It is used in membrane technology alright but the tube where the action occurs are in the mm-nm or less range.
 

riven

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The advantage of using swirly pipes:

I suspect it is to do with turbulence. The swirly pipes will alow the fluid to be turbulent at a lower velocity (smaller pump) which means less energy is required for mixing. This would be a big thing if my concerns below were solved.
I have concerns about the increased frictional losses and the application (gas liquid vacuum...)
 

former wesleyan

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The only potential efficiency gain I would see here would be where piping goes round corners. The problem with corners in pipes is the fluid effectively slams into the corner and loses speed, before starting off again at ninety degrees. If the corner were instead a helical twist, that might be more efficient.
Corners in pipes avoid that by using either long radius elbows or 45 deg + straight + 45deg.

Who dug this thread up ?
 

GDPR

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Well, they help anyway.

link

"This odd-looking swirly-shaped pipe (pictured) is a green technology from a new British company called HeliSwirl. It’s a swirly-shaped pipe. It’s also a low-carbon technology - not because it is made with low-carbon materials or through some new energy-stingy manufacturing process, but because, well, because it’s swirly shape helps fluids flow through it more easily, requiring less power to run the pumps that pump the fluid."

Simple ideas are always the best.


These were first designed in the 1930s by Austrian inventor, Viktor Schauberger. He was decades before his time in all aspects of water technology.
 


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