Taking advantage of Brexit - let's revisit 'Decentralisation'

ON THE ONE ROAD

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Mostly wealth, its a long time since the industries of Dublin were beer and biscuits.

It still makes beer.

True, the economic model is based on the lawyers and accountants trimming regulations, not actually producing anything. Our country cousins have agriculture and agriindustry. They do produce things. Their infrastructure is based on getting product to Dublin quickest. Wealth is centred in Dublin, it is not enough to say Dublin makes its own cake and the rest of the state by incompetency doesn't. The process is a lot more interconnected on actual product making streams.
 


Deadlock

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It still makes beer.

True, the economic model is based on the lawyers and accountants trimming regulations, not actually producing anything. Our country cousins have agriculture and agriindustry. They do produce things. Their infrastructure is based on getting product to Dublin quickest. Wealth is centred in Dublin, it is not enough to say Dublin makes its own cake and the rest of the state by incompetency doesn't. The process is a lot more interconnected on actual product making streams.
The question isn't one of competence - rather it is one of critical mass.

Greater Dublin has it. It has the population concentration (almost 2m), and industry (I.T., tourism, financial services, and creative to cite a few). It is home to four universities (UCD, TCD, DCU, NUIM) , the DIT and three ITs (Blanchardstown, Tallaght and Dun Laoghaire), the national media such as it is (Indo, RTE, IT). It has the greatest concentration of infrastructure - digital and physical in the Republic (I take the points made by previous posters that it is not wonderful or near par with a similarly sized region elsewhere in the EU).

Outside of counties Dubln, Kildare, Meath and Wicklow, the only other major population axis in the Republic runs through counties Cork, Limerick, Clare and Galway. Consider then that Greater Dublin would probably fit snugly in Co Cork, and you'll see population is spread too thinly for other centres to emerge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Dublin
 

wombat

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It still makes beer.

True, the economic model is based on the lawyers and accountants trimming regulations, not actually producing anything.
You need to travel more, there are new industries such as pharma and IT employing thousands, to say nothing of those providing the services needed by 1m people.
 

wombat

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Outside of counties Dubln, Kildare, Meath and Wicklow, the only other major population axis in the Republic runs through counties Cork, Limerick, Clare and Galway. Consider then that Greater Dublin would probably fit snugly in Co Cork, and you'll see population is spread too thinly for other centres to emerge.
That is what decentralisation means, developing one or two major centres outside Dublin, not a civil servant dancing at every crossroads.
 

Lord Talbot

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The question isn't one of competence - rather it is one of critical mass.
Another useful term is agglomeration. Businesses set up in cities due to their proximity to other businesses.

This basic agglomeration principal is what underpins urbanisation and its the reason the world now has a higher urban population than rural. That penny still hasn't dropped for some of the slower folks in the community but at least the state seems to have copped on at this stage, though its still a little half hearted about it.
 

ON THE ONE ROAD

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The question isn't one of competence - rather it is one of critical mass.

Greater Dublin has it. It has the population concentration (almost 2m), and industry (I.T., tourism, financial services, and creative to cite a few). It is home to four universities (UCD, TCD, DCU, NUIM) , the DIT and three ITs (Blanchardstown, Tallaght and Dun Laoghaire), the national media such as it is (Indo, RTE, IT). It has the greatest concentration of infrastructure - digital and physical in the Republic (I take the points made by previous posters that it is not wonderful or near par with a similarly sized region elsewhere in the EU).

Outside of counties Dubln, Kildare, Meath and Wicklow, the only other major population axis in the Republic runs through counties Cork, Limerick, Clare and Galway. Consider then that Greater Dublin would probably fit snugly in Co Cork, and you'll see population is spread too thinly for other centres to emerge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Dublin
This issue is not a recent problem. people could have had this discussion on this day a century ago and the issues would be broadly the same. Dublin has accumulated a lot of that because it was an administrative and exporting hub. Nothing to apologise for but by not reinventing wealth generated through out the state back through out the state has created problems. Cork or limerick will not be able to generate wealth comparable to Dublin until comparable Capital is invested in it.
 

Lord Talbot

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This issue is not a recent problem. people could have had this discussion on this day a century ago and the issues would be broadly the same. Dublin has accumulated a lot of that because it was an administrative and exporting hub. Nothing to apologise for but by not reinventing wealth generated through out the state back through out the state has created problems. Cork or limerick will not be able to generate wealth comparable to Dublin until comparable Capital is invested in it.
Cork and especially Limerick will never be able to generate wealth comparable to Dublin. And they don't have to.

Believing they might one day is idiotic. Portlaoise is growing faster than Limerick ffs.
 

ON THE ONE ROAD

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You need to travel more, there are new industries such as pharma and IT employing thousands, to say nothing of those providing the services needed by 1m people.
Phara produces things, and located throughout the state, IT call centres and stuff based not solely in Dublin. a lot of IT Dublin solely stuff is just an extension of the lawyers and accountants trading on the name of the state to clean money market.
 

paulp

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Brexit, on it's current course, is going to be a nuclear detonation going off in the heart of the British economy. On it's current course, the British economy is going to get completely f*cked.
In that scenario, the impact to the Irish economy will be very very significant. We need to prepare for that very likely scenario.

Spending money on a decentralisation program is the very wrong thing to do in that scenario.
 

ON THE ONE ROAD

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Cork and especially Limerick will never be able to generate wealth comparable to Dublin. And they don't have to.

Believing they might one day is idiotic.

True and true they don't have to but acknowledging that then an honest person can not use their inability to generate comparable wealth as an against them.
 

Deadlock

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That is what decentralisation means, developing one or two major centres outside Dublin, not a civil servant dancing at every crossroads.
I'm aware of the meaning of the word. My argument is the redistribution cannot occur in a vacuum - there is a woeful insufficiency of infrastructure, population, regional government apparatus, and legislative provision at national level for dencentralised government to gain traction. In the absence of these what is the point?

For example - Proper regional government replacing a swathe of UDCs and counties with control of the health and environmental budgets for their respective areas would be a start. Government functions related to their functions and provision would then dencentralise in a meaningful way.
 

Lord Talbot

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True and true they don't have to but acknowledging that then an honest person can not use their inability to generate comparable wealth as an against them.
You can't have equal opportunities spread evenly throughout every square mile of a country. Not even the most egalitarian societies on earth have anything close to that.

If someone wants to succeed in a particular field that is based mainly in Dublin then guess what - move to Dublin. If not, then find something your community needs and stay there doing that. Don't go crying to the state to drag an industry to your local area at great taxpayer expense just because you don't want to move.

Its not the state's job to tell private enterprise where to operate.
 

Itsalaugh

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No. It wasn't an "audacious" idea, it was a f***ing moronic idea.

Dublin isn't bloated, its a small city with sh*t transport and a crap planning system.

Dublin is only bloated to pig ignorant village idiots who've never been outside their town of 10 families.

Idiot.
The peripheral regions in this state are being slowly strangled of long-term vitality. Dublin is lacking sufficient suitable housing and office space to become the prime magnet for an anglicised, rugbymad enforced exit from London's financial orbit. If a hard Brexit occurs - still very likely - and Dublin only captures a miniscule share of the fleeing bankers while our state succumbs to a further knockbacks from tariffs with our main market than our capital may likely further erode in promimence.
 

ON THE ONE ROAD

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You can't have equal opportunities spread evenly throughout every square mile of a country. Not even the most egalitarian societies on earth have anything close to that.

If someone wants to succeed in a particular field that is based mainly in Dublin then guess what - move to Dublin. If not, then find something your community needs and stay there doing that. Don't go crying to the state to drag an industry to your local area at great taxpayer expense just because you don't want to move.

Its not the state's job to tell private enterprise where to operate.
Not sure who you are arguing with. Me or just making a point in general.
 

ON THE ONE ROAD

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The peripheral regions in this state are being slowly strangled of long-term vitality. Dublin is lacking sufficient suitable housing and office space to become the prime magnet for an anglicised, rugbymad enforced exit from London's financial orbit. If a hard Brexit occurs - still very likely - and Dublin only captures a miniscule share of the fleeing bankers while our state succumbs to a further knockbacks from tariffs with our main market than our capital may likely further erode in promimence.

The last time there was tarrif barriers in the Irish Sea, devs protectionism there was a number of English companies that exported here set up here to beat the tarrifs and visa versa.

To early to say what way brexit will go but in the event of hard brexit should that be the stuff to be aiming for. they, British companies, Cadburys, general motors, players wills set up here in the 30s to reach a population of 3 million, might it happen again for a population of 700 million.
 

Itsalaugh

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The crash still casts a long shadow. The housing shortage is at crisis levels, with the most recent figures showing there were just 3,500 properties to let in the entire country and just 2,800 properties for sale in Dublin, according to Marian Finnegan, chief economist at estate agent Sherry Fitzgerald.

“This is a market in recovery and, if everyone arrived on one day, it would be a problem,” she said. “We do have a crisis in the residential sector.”

She estimated that there were only “a couple of hundred” high-end new homes available for incoming high-rollers, including some €5m-plus penthouses at Landsdowne Place, in the shadow of the Aviva rugby stadium.

The apartment block is emblematic of Ireland’s ability to move on from its past. It is being built on the site of two hotels in the city’s Ballsbridge area bought in the boom years by a now bankrupt builder for €400m and sold on by Ulster Bank to Chartered Land and the Abu Dhabi sovereign wealth fund for €170m.

In contrast to London, where prices continued to go up and up after the crash, prices in Dublin are still 30-35% off their peak. On the commercial front, the situation is different, with 335,000 square feet under construction, and just 27% pre-let and 11% reserved.

Tim Payne, head of people and change at accountancy firm KPMG, said picking another city to move to may be the easy part compared with the “tough sell” of convincing London staff, and their families, to move.

Indeed, HSBC is struggling even to convince enough of its staff to make the 120-mile move from London’s Docklands to the bank’s new British headquarters in Birmingham, despite offering rewards of up to £2,500.

Meanwhile, fears that Dublin would go down the ranks of European cities because of the lack of schools have been assuaged after Nord Anglia International announced it was opening a school in September 2018 and would offer the international baccalaureate curriculum. It has yet to start enrolling pupils but has already taken more than 400 enquiries.

JP Morgan’s Dimon has played down the idea of one location inside the EU benefiting from the fallout of Brexit but he warned that could change as 75% of the activity JP Morgan conducts in the UK was for EU companies.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/15/dublin-first-choice-london-banks-brexit-relocation-plans

Major dearth of suitable office space may be greater hanicap to Dublin reaping the bonanza the likely hard Brexit could herald. Putting on 'their green jerseys' wouldnt our civil service be able to adjust temporarialy to a warehouse in an Irish provincial town allowing Mention Sq etc to be bait for the refined tastes of London's fleeing b\nkers. Anyone else got suggestions to take pole position over our continental rivals?

And according to Bloomberg it's Frankfurt that is primed to take the bulk of the 30k financial jobs displaced by a hard Brexit with Dublin lagging well to the rear.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-brexit-bankers/
 
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Schuhart

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Decentralisation is a good idea if planned and implemented properly but its worth remembering that there are approx 30,000 civil servants, even if half were moved, its not a huge number if spread thinly.
We actually need to change how we approach this issue.

Like in most regional development agendas, advocates tend to call for approaches that have already been tried and failed.

We already have decentralised the civil service.
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-07-13a.608

The proportion of civil servants working outside Dublin is now just over 50%.
We did it. It didn't work.

An interesting question might be to ask why people seem so unaware of this.
 


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