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Taking childrens interest into account when deciding to send people to prison


partnership

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Welfare of prisoners' children addressed in report - The Irish Times - Tue, Nov 20, 2012

I saw this on the Irish Times website and was taken aback by the report which started.
The best interests of the child should be a key consideration when sending a parent to prison, a new report by the Irish Penal Reform Trust (IPRT) has found.

I just wonder at the message it is giving. Are rights now more important than responsabilities? Can people commit crime and then say because they have children they should not be sent to jail?

Don't get me wrong I believe we should try to help the families of prisoners and where possible put mechanisms in place to help maintain contact etc. However if someone commits a crime they should do the time. They make the decision to engage in illegal activity so they need to face up to the consequences.
 

Aristodemus

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"When sending a parent to prison"? What it means is sending a mother to prison. It's effectively a get out of jail free card. Some of these people availing of this should have their children taken off them for the good of the children themselves.
 

farnaby

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"When sending a parent to prison"? What it means is sending a mother to prison. It's effectively a get out of jail free card. Some of these people availing of this should have their children taken off them for the good of the children themselves.
The article doesn't mention mothers and specifically talks about "the need to better facilitate father-child relationships". It also does not mention people avoiding jail but rather is about increasing the access of children to visit a jailed parent. Denying visitation rights to children may be more detrimental to them rather than the jailed parent, surely some other punishments/deterrents can be used if necessary.

Overall sounds fair and balanced to me.
 

Trainwreck

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I would think that in very many cases it would be mostly in the interests of the child to send the mother - I am guessing - to prison and have the children adopted into a family that might break the pernicious socioeconomic cycle in this country that creates ferals from ferals.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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I would think that in very many cases it would be mostly in the interests of the child to send the mother - I am guessing - to prison and have the children adopted into a family that might break the pernicious socioeconomic cycle in this country that creates ferals from ferals.
I find you so charming.
 
B

Boggle

Hard one to call. We have a serious issue with crimes not being dealt with in this country but is punishing kids the answer?

Like I have said before; build purpose built prisons where you have limited or no access to other inmates and they can have all the contact they like with their kids.

However, kids should be irrelevant in sentencing as we are all equal before the law, regardless of how many kids we have. Do the crime then accept the consequences and understand that it is the criminal who made this happen and not the state.
 

Trainwreck

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I find you so charming.
But do you have a comment?

I am guessing you think it would never be in the interests of the child to have them removed from the negative influence or lack of positive influence of a guardian who is anti-social to the point they have earned a prison sentence?

You have to be forthcoming. A parent should always be spared a custodial sentence if they have children? And the children will always be better off for it?



Don't forget we have just passed a referendum declaring that children should be potected from harm or failing parents. Earning yourself a prison sentence is never a sign of failure to protect and provide for your children? I beg to differ.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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But do you have a comment?

I am guessing you think it would never be in the interests of the child to have them removed from the negative influence or lack of positive influence of a guardian who is anti-social to the point they have earned a prison sentence?

You have to be forthcoming. A parent should always be spared a custodial sentence if they have children? And the children will be better off for it?
I'm still digesting your "ferals from ferals" comment.

I would suggest that if you are concerned about these ferals, that rather than snatching their children from them, you should be supportive of efforts to make a more equal society. I know that doesn't make exciting headlines, but it might help the ferals you are worried about.
 

Trainwreck

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I'm still digesting your "ferals from ferals" comment.

I would suggest that if you are concerned about these ferals, that rather than snatching their children from them, you should be supportive of efforts to make a more equal society. I know that doesn't make exciting headlines, but it might help the ferals you are worried about.
Placing a child into care - possible with more responsible family members - when their parent starts a prison sentence is child snatching?

So someone being sent to prison, someone with parental repsonsibilities found guilty of a serious crime is always a victim and just needs more "equality". I know that makes you feel superior, but it might not help the children you pretend to be interested in.
 

White Horse

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I wish the Irish Penal Reform Trust (IPRT) was as concerned about the victims of crime.
 
B

Boggle

Placing a child into care - possible with more responsible family members - when their parent starts a prison sentence is child snatching?

So someone being sent to prison, someone with parental repsonsibilities found guilty of a serious crime is always a victim and just needs more "equality". I know that makes you feel superior, but it might not help the children you pretend to be interested in.
Unless the child is mistreated then there is no reason to remove the child.
If it is mistreated then we have to look at whats in the best interests of the child.

Prison doesn't come into it for me.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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Placing a child into care - possible with more responsible family members - when their parent starts a prison sentence is child snatching?

So someone being sent to prison, someone with parental repsonsibilities found guilty of a serious crime is always a victim and just needs more "equality". I know that makes you feel superior, but it might not help the children you pretend to be interested in.
You said "adopted". That is permanent. You have softened that to placing the child into care, but presumably if you want to give effect to it, that would have to be permanent too. Otherwise you would be denying kids access to their parents while they were in prison, until they were released, when they could then go back to them. Which brings us full circle to how we give kids access to parents who are in prison.

Please explain what exactly it is that I am supposedly feeling superior about.
 

EUrJokingMeRight

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I would think that in very many cases it would be mostly in the interests of the child to send the mother - I am guessing - to prison and have the children adopted into a family that might break the pernicious socioeconomic cycle in this country that creates ferals from ferals.
Says the one who is clearly mentally feral.

Of course raising kids to hold a disdain for those from a worse socio-economic background is healthy, nay beneficial to children?

classy!
 

Trainwreck

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You said "adopted". That is permanent. You have softened that to placing the child into care, but presumably if you want to give effect to it, that would have to be permanent too. Otherwise you would be denying kids access to their parents while they were in prison, until they were released, when they could then go back to them. Which brings us full circle to how we give kids access to parents who are in prison.

Please explain what exactly it is that I am supposedly feeling superior about.
About your sense of moral superiorty.


I am guessing you voted NO at the Referendum then? The question of what may be the best interests of a child whose parents has committed a criminal act of sufficient severity to earn a prison sentence was particularly germane.


You will recall that we passed a Constitutional Amendment to allow forced adoption to be the answer to that question of what would be in the best interests of the child in some circumstances.
 

Trainwreck

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Says the one who is clearly mentally feral.

Of course raising kids to hold a disdain for those from a worse socio-economic background is healthy, nay beneficial to children?

classy!
Raising children in a environment of criminality is what I clearly articulated. I feel "feral" is an appropriate phrase for a person who grows up to become criminal or anti-social because that is all they learned from their environment.
 

tigerben

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The article doesn't mention mothers and specifically talks about "the need to better facilitate father-child relationships". It also does not mention people avoiding jail but rather is about increasing the access of children to visit a jailed parent. Denying visitation rights to children may be more detrimental to them rather than the jailed parent, surely some other punishments/deterrents can be used if necessary.

Overall sounds fair and balanced to me.


Well let's begin by the father's paying for their children before the use them as a get out of jail card!
 

Clanrickard

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I wish the Irish Penal Reform Trust (IPRT) was as concerned about the victims of crime.
Thew children of jailed fathers are victims of crime. Not having contact with their father has negative affects on life further down the road. Furthermore fathers who keep contact with their kids are less likely to re-offend which is desirable.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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About your sense of moral superiorty.


I am guessing you voted NO at the Referendum then? The question of what may be the best interests of a child whose parents has committed a criminal act of sufficient sevirty to earn a prison sentence was particularly germaine.


You will recall that we passed a Constitution Amendment to allow forced adoption to be the answer to that question of what would be in the bes tinterests of the child in some circumstances.
I feel superior about my sense of moral superiority?

You have no idea how I voted in the referendum, do you? Either way, I don't remember us voting to put the children of prisoners up for adoption.
 

EvotingMachine0197

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Unless the child is mistreated then there is no reason to remove the child.
If it is mistreated then we have to look at whats in the best interests of the child.

Prison doesn't come into it for me.
One could possibly argue that when a parent engages in criminal behaviour, they are mistreating their children.
 
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