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"Taking the soup"


diy01

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Does the phrase refer solely to those who renounced their faith in exhange for food during the Famine years? Or was it also used for people who dropped the O or Mc/Mac from their surname (if they had one to drop....or if they adopted the Anglicized version of their name).
 

diy01

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More or less. I remember reading a little tidbit about surnames awhile back. Around 1851 only 1% of surnames bearing the name Kelly were using the O'Kelly form.
 

johnfás

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Refers to both so far as I am aware, but in most instances to the taking of the soup. Which of course refers to the dishing out of meat soup on a Friday (to those who are not aware, at that time Catholics did not eat meat on a Friday) thus in order to do so, they were encouraged to renounce their faith.

Get in touch with Irish Church Missions down on Bachelor's Walk (www.icm-online.ie) if you want to know more. Don't know if in the modern day they'd have any record of it, but it was those lads who were at it.
 

Inishowen

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I know that the Quakers did a huge amount of famine relief work particularly in the West and they set up a number of soup kitchens but there is no record of people being 'required' to relinquish their faith in order to be saved from starvation. And only a lunatic would refuse to allow a starving child a bowl of soup with meat in it.
 

DAOINE

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All Irish names at one time started with an O or a MC so what you are saying makes no sense.
In Northern Ireland the term refers to somebody with a Catholic name but is a Protestant. Its pretty much myth in most instances that people were forced to renounce their Catholicism in order to get food during the famine.
Some families just converted such as Brian Borus descendants. They kept their land as well. Also many of the servants and hangers-on converted as well. The most famous "Souper" of course was Terence O'Neill.
 

diy01

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All Irish names at one time started with an O or a MC so what you are saying makes no sense.
Huh? Well there was sure a lot of O and Mc dropping going on. No idea if it had anything to do with the Famine years though.
 

DAOINE

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It didnt. During the Downs Survey of Ireland a huge amount of surnames were anglicised. That is where the O and Mc were lost in certain areas. The name Ryan , O Ryan and Mulryan all derive from O'Maoilriaghain.
They were turned into English at different times and in different places from different Irish dialects thence the names become slightly different in English.
 
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Inishowen said:
I know that the Quakers did a huge amount of famine relief work particularly in the West and they set up a number of soup kitchens but there is no record of people being 'required' to relinquish their faith in order to be saved from starvation. And only a lunatic would refuse to allow a starving child a bowl of soup with meat in it.
A lunatic yes, the kind of lunatic that would say All Catholics Are Targets. That attitude is not confine to the 20th century after all. There were soup kitchens run by proslytisers who only fed people on condition of renunciation of the Catholic faith. That is a fact.
Now why do you have a loyalist avatar?
 

Nem

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Interesting question. I'd say the first issue might be correct in some circumstances where Evangelical Christains 'encouraged' these conversions. To what extend this took place is hard to say. With all the documents being lost due to fires over time, a fulll picture is very hard to sketch.

The changing of names is even harder to establish. Few records were kept and then often spelt differently depending on who wrote them down and where.

Other then that, i do think some of the issues have been raised over the past years under a cloud of political motivation which devalued them somewhat.
 

KingKane

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The term refers in the main to those who were employed by relief works projects that were initiated in West Cork, South Kerry during the famine by some of the protestant churches, whereby funds were raised for the building of churches in the area (they tried to raise money just to provide people with food at first but those efforts didn't find a ready audience so they changed it to raising money to build churches) which then just happened to employ and provide food for the local people in those areas. It was hardly surprising after that that some of the people decided that there might be something in the Christian faith of those who had provided them with food when they were hungry in contrast to the efforts of their original faith and so some of those converted. The food would mostly have been in the form of soup as that is less easy to take away for others.

For the record, my own given name is Sullivan and but the name of my grandfather was Ó Sullivan, however my grandmother when registering her children's names for some reason left out the Ó, we're not entirely sure why but she was a Fianna Fail woman all her life so I could just blame it on that. One possible reason is that the names were registered as béarla she took the view that there are no Ó as béarla then there wouldn't be in the names either and it was just after the civil war so things might have been tetchy enough. And as I was born in Angleterre they take the view that you are what your parents are hence I'm Sullivan too. My parents use the Ó now and then though once they found that there is no need to look to change your name so long as the Ó was there in the beginning.

It would be electorally beneficial for me to change it I guess but I've gotten used to it and anyway I'm Ó Súilleabháin as Gaeilge and that is all that matters.
 

jerryp

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I think many of the variations of surnames can be put down to the fact that they were rarely written down and then only phonetically. Remember reading somewhere years ago that the name Selwyn, quite common in parts of England and included in Maggie Thatchers ancestry, is in fact the phonetic version of O'Suilleabháin or O'Sullivan.
 

croppyboy

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What about 'Castle Catholics' - my Grandad used this phrase with almost as much contempt as for those who 'took the soup'

I think Castle Catholics were those who had 'collaborated' with the imperialist invader taking up positions within the crown structures or in particular abetting the landlords becoming agents etc in return for land and/or titles of their own.

Anyone else know this phrase or its origin?
 

Inishowen

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General Von Klinkerhoffen said:
Inishowen said:
I know that the Quakers did a huge amount of famine relief work particularly in the West and they set up a number of soup kitchens but there is no record of people being 'required' to relinquish their faith in order to be saved from starvation. And only a lunatic would refuse to allow a starving child a bowl of soup with meat in it.
A lunatic yes, the kind of lunatic that would say All Catholics Are Targets. That attitude is not confine to the 20th century after all. There were soup kitchens run by proslytisers who only fed people on condition of renunciation of the Catholic faith. That is a fact.
Now why do you have a loyalist avatar?
Can you post a link for this 'fact' please? I belive it to be a sectarian myth but if you have 'proof' i'd be glad to reconsider.

Now why do you have a name taken from a british comedy series?
 
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Inishowen said:
I know that the Quakers did a huge amount of famine relief work particularly in the West and they set up a number of soup kitchens but there is no record of people being 'required' to relinquish their faith in order to be saved from starvation. And only a lunatic would refuse to allow a starving child a bowl of soup with meat in it.


Yes, unlike Rome Protestant denominations attempted to give some help during the famine.

Pity the Vatican never sold one of its paintings or some of its gold, it would have saved lots of lives.
 

mr_anderson

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Dec 12, 2007
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fishing

Can someone please tell me why, during the famine, people on the coast didnt fish ?

Ive never been able to get a logical answer to that question.
 

johnfás

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croppyboy said:
Anyone else know this phrase or its origin?
Came from DP Moran in his periodical The Leader. You are correct in its absolute definition. However, it was used more generally to describe Catholics living inside the Pale or otherwise who adopted the mannerism and socialised with the establishment.
 

johnfás

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Inishowen said:
General Von Klinkerhoffen said:
Inishowen said:
I know that the Quakers did a huge amount of famine relief work particularly in the West and they set up a number of soup kitchens but there is no record of people being 'required' to relinquish their faith in order to be saved from starvation. And only a lunatic would refuse to allow a starving child a bowl of soup with meat in it.
A lunatic yes, the kind of lunatic that would say All Catholics Are Targets. That attitude is not confine to the 20th century after all. There were soup kitchens run by proslytisers who only fed people on condition of renunciation of the Catholic faith. That is a fact.
Now why do you have a loyalist avatar?
Can you post a link for this 'fact' please? I belive it to be a sectarian myth but if you have 'proof' i'd be glad to reconsider.

Now why do you have a name taken from a british comedy series?
The above was true more of the COI than it was of the Quakers to be perfectly honest. The Quaker's didn't demand people converted.
 
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