Talk Dirty to me Bertie - Fianna Fáil-Fine Gael merger possible, says Ahern

RelentlessApathy!

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The Republic of Ireland, he said, was moving to a system of "three big parties", involving Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Sinn Féin.

"Young people are more educated now and people are travelling and I suppose those old ways of identifications are not what they were," he told Talkback.

"For the foreseeable future I think you're probably going to find Fianna Fáil-Fine Gael joining together, I think that's the way it will go.
As far back as the forties, there were people saying there was no difference between FF and FG, in recent decades it has come up repeatedly in Europe when asked what the difference is between the two parties, it was hard to point it out. FF and FG supporters and members are at pains to point out their perceived differences, but that's the problem with perception, it's irrelevant if the broader base of voters and observers can't see those differences no matter how much some may protest otherwise.

For my own part, I find the following reasons to see FF and FG as one and the same:

  1. They largely share an older demographic of older and more conservative voters with only FG having any appeal to younger age groups.
  2. Observing their representatives at the different levels of government, they often vote together and any policy differences are usually marginal. They both carry the torch for the older model of Catholic conservatism that held through up until more recent times. Often you'll find that FF and FG members and reps are quite congenial and amenable with each other sharing a similar world view.
  3. Both parties largely have the same macro-economic outlook, choosing to be followers of orthodoxy rather than choosing innovation through alternative and disruptive ideas.
  4. In the context of the current government, FF now follow the FG model of letting the CS wag the dog instead of ministers waging the tail(CS). Again this leads to both a lack of innovation as well as failing the principle that politicians are there to whip the permanent government to their constituents interests. Solutions to problems in Health and Housing can't arise through this model. The two parties lead to manage as opposed to leading.
  5. With the above in mind, a critical analysis of the parties shows a failure of ability to differentiate between the two parties through positive argument. There is an ingrained reliance through the older model of politics in attacking others as opposed to projecting vision and demonstrating leadership. Recently I challenged supporters both here and in other online forms to put forward a vision of how the parties would improve citizens lives and resolve the problems of Health and Housing where both have struggled. Very little was put forth.
In light of the above, Bertie's just saying the quite part out loud and what members don't want to hear, but sometimes no matter how you wish it were otherwise...it just ain't so. The alternative to a merger is oblivion as demonstrated by Labour, and currently the lay of the land is in FG's favor. So now hard questions need be asked as the older political models become impossible to sustain, merge and survive or live in the wasteland?
 


Gin Soaked

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In 2002, FG was nearly obliterated. FF's turn was 2011 and, it could be said, 2020, where they are clearly up for feeding to FG and SF.

FF are the zombie party. Should FG let the zombie in where they add nothing to the party identity.

There is an emerging Left / right split. FF are having an identity crisis.
 

toughbutfair

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I would like to see such a merger. As SF are now strong, we would have a FFG vs SF/Lab choice and the greens could swing.
 

Marcos the black

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As far back as the forties, there were people saying there was no difference between FF and FG, in recent decades it has come up repeatedly in Europe when asked what the difference is between the two parties, it was hard to point it out. FF and FG supporters and members are at pains to point out their perceived differences, but that's the problem with perception, it's irrelevant if the broader base of voters and observers can't see those differences no matter how much some may protest otherwise.

For my own part, I find the following reasons to see FF and FG as one and the same:

  1. They largely share an older demographic of older and more conservative voters with only FG having any appeal to younger age groups.
  2. Observing their representatives at the different levels of government, they often vote together and any policy differences are usually marginal. They both carry the torch for the older model of Catholic conservatism that held through up until more recent times. Often you'll find that FF and FG members and reps are quite congenial and amenable with each other sharing a similar world view.
  3. Both parties largely have the same macro-economic outlook, choosing to be followers of orthodoxy rather than choosing innovation through alternative and disruptive ideas.
  4. In the context of the current government, FF now follow the FG model of letting the CS wag the dog instead of ministers waging the tail(CS). Again this leads to both a lack of innovation as well as failing the principle that politicians are there to whip the permanent government to their constituents interests. Solutions to problems in Health and Housing can't arise through this model. The two parties lead to manage as opposed to leading.
  5. With the above in mind, a critical analysis of the parties shows a failure of ability to differentiate between the two parties through positive argument. There is an ingrained reliance through the older model of politics in attacking others as opposed to projecting vision and demonstrating leadership. Recently I challenged supporters both here and in other online forms to put forward a vision of how the parties would improve citizens lives and resolve the problems of Health and Housing where both have struggled. Very little was put forth.
In light of the above, Bertie's just saying the quite part out loud and what members don't want to hear, but sometimes no matter how you wish it were otherwise...it just ain't so. The alternative to a merger is oblivion as demonstrated by Labour, and currently the lay of the land is in FG's favor. So now hard questions need be asked as the older political models become impossible to sustain, merge and survive or live in the wasteland?
And yet FF have only been back in govt 2 weeks and we've had nothing but scandal, parish politics and internal bickering.. it makes the last 9 years seen very tame and competent by comparison.
But yes..I suppose you're right.. there is no difference 🧐
 

james toney

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Bertie is behind the times.
 

Gin Soaked

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And yet FF have only been back in govt 2 weeks and we've had nothing but scandal, parish politics and internal bickering.. it makes the last 9 years seen very tame and competent by comparison.
But yes..I suppose you're right.. there is no difference 🧐
So far, FG's 9 years look like a model of competence, save for Leo's inability of knowing when to go to the country.
 

rockofcashel

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So far, FG's 9 years look like a model of competence, save for Leo's inability of knowing when to go to the country.
No FG Taoiseach ever knew when the right time to go to the country was.. hence the reason none of them ever managed to win a second term on their own merits
 

Fullforward

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And yet FF have only been back in govt 2 weeks and we've had nothing but scandal, parish politics and internal bickering.. it makes the last 9 years seen very tame and competent by comparison.
But yes..I suppose you're right.. there is no difference 🧐
.......but that won't stop Fine Gael voting 100% confidence in any of the FF crooks. Two cheeks...........
 

Marcos the black

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.......but that won't stop Fine Gael voting 100% confidence in any of the FF crooks. Two cheeks...........
It's called a coalition... Again... Do you think FG should vote against FF at this point? Is that what you're looking for?
 

wombat

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No FG Taoiseach ever knew when the right time to go to the country was.. hence the reason none of them ever managed to win a second term on their own merits
Its more to do with what FG do when they are in office than when they call an election. FF were able to govern on their own for most of their existence being replaced by FG/Labour coalitions whenever FF screwed up. The inherent contradictions between FG & Labour meant that neither set of supporters were satisfied and FF got back into power.
 

Gin Soaked

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No FG Taoiseach ever knew when the right time to go to the country was.. hence the reason none of them ever managed to win a second term on their own merits
Tobe fair we had feck all practice and there was usually NOT a good time.

Leo was probably the first to encounter such a thing. Enda may have had a sniff too. Previously? Not so much..
 

neiphin

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It's called a coalition... Again... Do you think FG should vote against FF at this point? Is that what you're looking for?
FG will and are now showing that they will tolerate any ff shinanigans
the youth have seen through the smoke
 

Marcos the black

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FG will and are now showing that they will tolerate any ff shinanigans
the youth have seen through the smoke
So... Do you want them to walk away from govt? You didn't answer. Maybe you could clarify.
 

wombat

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Watcher2

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As far back as the forties, there were people saying there was no difference between FF and FG, in recent decades it has come up repeatedly in Europe when asked what the difference is between the two parties, it was hard to point it out. FF and FG supporters and members are at pains to point out their perceived differences, but that's the problem with perception, it's irrelevant if the broader base of voters and observers can't see those differences no matter how much some may protest otherwise.

For my own part, I find the following reasons to see FF and FG as one and the same:

  1. They largely share an older demographic of older and more conservative voters with only FG having any appeal to younger age groups.
  2. Observing their representatives at the different levels of government, they often vote together and any policy differences are usually marginal. They both carry the torch for the older model of Catholic conservatism that held through up until more recent times. Often you'll find that FF and FG members and reps are quite congenial and amenable with each other sharing a similar world view.
  3. Both parties largely have the same macro-economic outlook, choosing to be followers of orthodoxy rather than choosing innovation through alternative and disruptive ideas.
  4. In the context of the current government, FF now follow the FG model of letting the CS wag the dog instead of ministers waging the tail(CS). Again this leads to both a lack of innovation as well as failing the principle that politicians are there to whip the permanent government to their constituents interests. Solutions to problems in Health and Housing can't arise through this model. The two parties lead to manage as opposed to leading.
  5. With the above in mind, a critical analysis of the parties shows a failure of ability to differentiate between the two parties through positive argument. There is an ingrained reliance through the older model of politics in attacking others as opposed to projecting vision and demonstrating leadership. Recently I challenged supporters both here and in other online forms to put forward a vision of how the parties would improve citizens lives and resolve the problems of Health and Housing where both have struggled. Very little was put forth.
In light of the above, Bertie's just saying the quite part out loud and what members don't want to hear, but sometimes no matter how you wish it were otherwise...it just ain't so. The alternative to a merger is oblivion as demonstrated by Labour, and currently the lay of the land is in FG's favor. So now hard questions need be asked as the older political models become impossible to sustain, merge and survive or live in the wasteland?
why do people give that failed, corrupt has been any attention? Scraub fevked the place with no remorse.
 

alaimacerc

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Da Beeb said:
"wide-ranging interview"
Doesn't that make your heart sink in and of itself? He's a bit like Trump on the phone to Fox at this stage. "I know you're very busy Mr President, so we'll let you--" "No, I've no round of golf on today. And here's another thing..."

This is the man that infamously described himself as a 'socialist'. While letting the PDs run the government's ideology, mind you. It's well-known he has no shame, but more importantly, is there any signs of him having the slightest clue, either?
 


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