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Tax increases don't work - End November Exchequer Statement


R

Ramps

Despite all tax increases and creative accounting, such as PRSI reclassification, income tax take continue to fall - -1.6% or 231 m so far
http://finance.gov.ie/documents/exchequerstatements/2012/analtaxnov.pdf
For how long government is going to pretend that redistribution instead of creation will save country?
For as long as most people, voters, are almost completely ignorant of how wealth is created.
As long as a majority of people think govts.' activity creates wealth, taxes will go up and up.

Depressing really.
 

iball123

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Despite all tax increases and creative accounting, such as PRSI reclassification, income tax take continue to fall - -1.6% or 231 m so far
http://finance.gov.ie/documents/exchequerstatements/2012/analtaxnov.pdf
For how long government is going to pretend that redistribution instead of creation will save country?
I have been at pains here trying to tell people on here and boards.ie that income tax is past the point of diminishing returns and up until now I have had no actual figure or proof, as I was going by gut and just seeing how the black economy is thriving, but this is very worrying and yet the gobdohs will once again tax more.
They raise the tax on smokes what happens black market ciggies are bigger than ever
They raise the tax on petrol what happens black markte petrol is being sold more and more
They raise the tax on work what happens people get a pain in the hole paying tax and go to the black economy.

People say that the OAPs , PS and other such groups know how to protest. Well Mr Kenny keep taxing either direct or indirect and watch middle income Ireland succumb to the Black Economy, not only does this save these people money it also throws a spanner in the works for the gov protecting themselves and their elite buddies.
 

Rocky

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I have been at pains here trying to tell people on here and boards.ie that income tax is past the point of diminishing returns and up until now I have had no actual figure or proof, as I was going by gut and just seeing how the black economy is thriving, but this is very worrying and yet the gobdohs will once again tax more.
They raise the tax on smokes what happens black market ciggies are bigger than ever
They raise the tax on petrol what happens black markte petrol is being sold more and more
They raise the tax on work what happens people get a pain in the hole paying tax and go to the black economy.

People say that the OAPs , PS and other such groups know how to protest. Well Mr Kenny keep taxing either direct or indirect and watch middle income Ireland succumb to the Black Economy, not only does this save these people money it also throws a spanner in the works for the gov protecting themselves and their elite buddies.
They raise VAT what happens they gain more income from VAT.
 

bormotello

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I have been at pains here trying to tell people on here and boards.ie that income tax is past the point of diminishing returns and up until now I have had no actual figure or proof, as I was going by gut and just seeing how the black economy is thriving, but this is very worrying and yet the gobdohs will once again tax more.
Some figures from UK
The number of people declaring incomes of more than £1m slumped from 16,000 to 6,000 after Gordon Brown introduced the new tax rules in 2010
The amount of tax paid by top earners fell from £13.4billion to £6.5billion as a result

Read more: Millionaires' exodus: Two thirds of Britain's top earners 'deserted the UK' after 50p top tax rate was introduced | Mail Online
 

iball123

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They raise VAT what happens they gain more income from VAT.
That is true Rocky, the problem with your analogy there is for the majority of items that we pay VAT on there is no Black Market equivalent, and if there is its being used. I see people doing jobs such as Attic conversions off the books, Taxi Men not turning the meter on, xmas decorations and toys that have fallen off the back of a trolly. Last year the gov estimate the Black Economy is costing 20 billion a year , I would hazard a guess that it is substantially more and this budget will push people towards the black economy. If they decide to keep taxing and not bother tackling the 3 Big fluffy pink elephants in the room which are PS pay and pensions, social welfare and the banks, then I have no qualms with anyone going to the black economy.
 

goosebump

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For how long government is going to pretend that redistribution instead of creation will save country?
Its chronically frustrating that this penny won't drop.

In a recession, the State should allow those who can create wealth to do so.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds.
 

feargach

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For those too busy to carefully study the table in post six: the income tax take from 2011 and 2012 is significantly above the tiger-period average of 2002-2007.

For those too busy to read the above sentence: the OP is a lie and 180 degrees contrary to reality.

Meaning it is a perfect post for P.ie. I'm sure the owner of the site is dead proud.
 

feargach

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Its chronically frustrating that this penny won't drop.

In a recession, the State should allow those who can create wealth to do so.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds.
Do you make any distinction between people who create added value and those who simply extract rents from people who are unable to get a better deal due to monopoly or oligopoly effects?
 

bormotello

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For those too busy to carefully study the table in post six: the income tax take from 2011 and 2012 is significantly above the tiger-period average of 2002-2007.
Mostly from accounting exercises like including USC and PRSI into tax take
 

Conor

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Conor

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bormotello

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An element of it. Adjusted for that, it's still up 6.9%.
Any source for income tax/USC/PRSI actual take?
BTW, for "Year-on-Year Performance - Monthly" 2012 November tax take is less than in 2011. Self-employed are slowly moving to black economy
 
Last edited:

Conor

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Any source for income tax/USC/PRSI actual take?
Only what you posted.

BTW, for "Year-on-Year Performance - Monthly" 2012 November tax take is less than in 2011. Self-employed are slowly moving to black economy
For "Year-on-Year Performance - Monthly" 2012 November tax take is 5.5% more than November 2011.
 

Howya

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Has any economist, anywhere ever shown from empirical evidence that tax increases are the way to solve a deficit?
 

bormotello

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For "Year-on-Year Performance - Monthly" 2012 November tax take is 5.5% more than November 2011.
I mean income tax take ( don't forget that it is including PRSI now, so in reality it is much worse)
November 2011 €m 2,203
November 2012 €m 2,181
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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They raise VAT what happens they gain more income from VAT.
They raised the higher rate of tax by 10% and it barely increased even after 2 to 3% inflation +
 
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