• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please us viua the Contact us link in the footer.

Taxes as a percentage of GNP. Is 22% really all that high?


feargach

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
4,995
Brian Hayes says we are at "the limit" of taxation.

We're taking in €36 billion in taxes. Our entire economy, as measured by GDP (sorry, the thread title needs to be fixed, it's not GNP), is €163.5bn. Source for Irish GDP is the UN, World Bank, IMF and the CIA, by means of wikipedia. They give GDP as between USD$217bn and 221bn.

So the taxman's total share of our economy is 22%. (If we're talking about one guesstimate of GNP at €130bn, then that figure rises to a scarcely-whopping 27%)

Is 22% really a hard limit?

Raising taxes so that spending equalises taxes would bring the percentage to 27%.

That would mean raising taxes by three pennies in the Euro.

Don't confuse that with pay rises to public employees. The money could be devoted to genuinely useful things (even if you believe that no public employee has ever done a tap of work). I would suggest giving Dublin, Cork and Limerick world-class cycle lanes and funding a world-class bus system revamp, buying a new fleet of 500 buses, subsidising commuter tickets so that it only costs 50 cents to get 50% of our workers to and from work.

This would pay for itself almost overnight, because it would shrink our car and fuel import-dependence, freeing billions of € of dead money up for things like paying the mortgages Irish people foolishly took on in the tiger period. Or even buying goods and services.
 
Last edited:


potholedogger

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
1,238
Brian Hayes says we are at "the limit" of taxation.

We're taking in €36 billion in taxes. Our entire economy, as measured by GNP, is €163.5bn.

So the taxman's total share of our economy is 22%.

Is 22% really a hard limit?

Raising taxes so that spending equalises taxes would bring the percentage to 27%.

That would mean raising taxes by three pennies in the Euro.

Don't confuse that with pay rises to public employees. The money could be devoted to genuinely useful things (even if you believe that no public employee has ever done a tap of work). I would suggest giving Dublin, Cork and Limerick world-class cycle lanes and funding a world-class bus system revamp, buying a new fleet of 500 buses, subsidising commuter tickets so that it only costs 50 cents to get 50% of our workers to and from work.

This would pay for itself almost overnight, because it would shrink our car and fuel import-dependence, freeing billions of € of dead money up for things like paying the mortgages Irish people foolishly took on in the tiger period. Or even buying goods and services.
If tax is only 22% of GNP then the economy should be booming!
 

Trainwreck

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Messages
26,772
Brian Hayes says we are at "the limit" of taxation.

We're taking in €36 billion in taxes. Our entire economy, as measured by GNP, is €163.5bn.

So the taxman's total share of our economy is 22%.

Is 22% really a hard limit?

GNP is more like €130 billion, from here:
http://cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/latestheadlinefigures/qna_q32012.pdf

Then, the entirety of taxes levied on households in Ireland is closer to €55 billion, from here:
12. Government deficit/surplus, revenue, expenditure and main aggregates


So €36 billion of €163.5 billion should be more like €55 billion of €130 billion, which is more like 42% of GNP


Do you want to redraft your OP?


If I answer the question, is 42% a hard limit? I would probably answer there is no hard limit but that looks awefully high to me and an obstacle to incentivising people to create income and it deprives them of the resources needed to do so.

THen of course you need to factor into the equation the fact that less than 50% of the population pay that 42%. In fact probably 10% pay virtually all of it. So their burden is a lot more than 42% and any increase would almost certainly fall on them again.
 

Analyzer

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,189
GNP is more like €130 billion, from here:
http://cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/latestheadlinefigures/qna_q32012.pdf

Then, the entirety of taxes levied on households in Ireland is closer to €55 billion, from here:
12. Government deficit/surplus, revenue, expenditure and main aggregates


So €36 billion of €163.5 billion should be more like €55 billion of €130 billion, which is more like 42% of GNP


Do you want to redraft your OP?
Is Irish taxation too high ?

Ask the retail businesses that are boarding up shop front windows in Main Streets up and down the country !!!!
 

sic transit

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
25,544
Is Irish taxation too high ?

Ask the retail businesses that are boarding up shop front windows in Main Streets up and down the country !!!!
That's more to do with council and landlord greed, overleveraging and in some cases serious miscalculations and stupidity.
 

Analyzer

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,189
That's more to do with council and landlord greed, overleveraging and in some cases serious miscalculations and stupidity.
I am talking about shops where the owners were in business in the 1980s. They usually own the shops.

The landlords provide something of use - a facility.

The Local Auhority provides junkets for councillors and an awful lot of nepotism and cronyism. And maybe even fees for somebody doing their Masters Degree.

Local Authority rates are a form of taxation. Taxation exerted on members of the public who come to the shop. The cost of the local authority rates is unemployment in the retail sector.
 

potholedogger

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
1,238
I am talking about shops where the owners were in business in the 1980s. They usually own the shops.

The landlords provide something of use - a facility.

The Local Auhority provides junkets for councillors and an awful lot of nepotism and cronyism. And maybe even fees for somebody doing their Masters Degree.

Local Authority rates are a form of taxation. Taxation exerted on everybody who buys in the shop.
We had too many shops in the boom.
 

sic transit

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
25,544
I am talking about shops where the owners were in business in the 1980s. They usually own the shops.

Local Authority rates are a form of taxation. Taxation exerted on everybody who buys in the shop.
I am not disputing that but you can't lump all the blame for business failures on taxation. Overleveraging and poor business decisions are much more to blame.
 

Trainwreck

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Messages
26,772
I am not disputing that but you can't lump all the blame for business failures on taxation. Overleveraging is much more of a killer.
I think the is saying the burden is currently high and the burden is very concentrated.
 

potholedogger

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
1,238
Many successful retail businesses over borrowed for property investment and sank the whole ship
 

Analyzer

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,189
We had too many shops in the boom.
Some of them must have been suplus to requirements in the 1980s also, because I see some of them closing too.....
 

Mossy Heneberry

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 10, 2009
Messages
3,841
Brian Hayes says we are at "the limit" of taxation.

We're taking in €36 billion in taxes. Our entire economy, as measured by GNP, is €163.5bn.

So the taxman's total share of our economy is 22%.

Is 22% really a hard limit?

Raising taxes so that spending equalises taxes would bring the percentage to 27%.

That would mean raising taxes by three pennies in the Euro.

Don't confuse that with pay rises to public employees. The money could be devoted to genuinely useful things (even if you believe that no public employee has ever done a tap of work). I would suggest giving Dublin, Cork and Limerick world-class cycle lanes and funding a world-class bus system revamp, buying a new fleet of 500 buses, subsidising commuter tickets so that it only costs 50 cents to get 50% of our workers to and from work.

This would pay for itself almost overnight, because it would shrink our car and fuel import-dependence, freeing billions of € of dead money up for things like paying the mortgages Irish people foolishly took on in the tiger period. Or even buying goods and services.
People are not using the exisitng bus service which is also heavily subsidise, so why do you think your plan would work?

And if you tax more, then you're just taking money out of another part of the economy.
 

Rocky

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
8,550
42% presuming trainwreck's calculations are correct is around the EU average. The UK would be 39% (although that's of GDP).
 

Mad as Fish

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
24,449

Mad as Fish

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
24,449

Howya

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
1,690
Brian Hayes says we are at "the limit" of taxation.

We're taking in €36 billion in taxes. Our entire economy, as measured by GNP, is €163.5bn.

So the taxman's total share of our economy is 22%.

Is 22% really a hard limit?

Raising taxes so that spending equalises taxes would bring the percentage to 27%.

That would mean raising taxes by three pennies in the Euro.

Don't confuse that with pay rises to public employees. The money could be devoted to genuinely useful things (even if you believe that no public employee has ever done a tap of work). I would suggest giving Dublin, Cork and Limerick world-class cycle lanes and funding a world-class bus system revamp, buying a new fleet of 500 buses, subsidising commuter tickets so that it only costs 50 cents to get 50% of our workers to and from work.

This would pay for itself almost overnight, because it would shrink our car and fuel import-dependence, freeing billions of € of dead money up for things like paying the mortgages Irish people foolishly took on in the tiger period. Or even buying goods and services.
Wouldn't it be better to waste less money so that taxes didn't need to be raised? (and no I'm not taking aim at PS workers).
 

The Old Woman

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2012
Messages
1,505
Is Irish taxation too high ?

Ask the retail businesses that are boarding up shop front windows in Main Streets up and down the country !!!!
Exactly

When we talk about taxation we fail include the tax concessions available to out-side interests which "effects" the tax returns of generic or domestic independent Irish business.
 

Taxi Driver

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
4,296
Brian Hayes says we are at "the limit" of taxation.

We're taking in €36 billion in taxes. Our entire economy, as measured by GNP, is €163.5bn.

So the taxman's total share of our economy is 22%.

Is 22% really a hard limit?

Raising taxes so that spending equalises taxes would bring the percentage to 27%.

That would mean raising taxes by three pennies in the Euro.

Don't confuse that with pay rises to public employees. The money could be devoted to genuinely useful things (even if you believe that no public employee has ever done a tap of work). I would suggest giving Dublin, Cork and Limerick world-class cycle lanes and funding a world-class bus system revamp, buying a new fleet of 500 buses, subsidising commuter tickets so that it only costs 50 cents to get 50% of our workers to and from work.

This would pay for itself almost overnight, because it would shrink our car and fuel import-dependence, freeing billions of € of dead money up for things like paying the mortgages Irish people foolishly took on in the tiger period. Or even buying goods and services.
According to this from today's Examiner we are not far from the EU average and collect the 8th highest amount of income tax in the EU!

It is a common refrain that Ireland is a low-tax economy. This is not true. In 2011, the EU average for tax receipts as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP) was 26%. The figure in Ireland was 24%, and using gross national product (GNP), which may be a more appropriate measure for Ireland, the figure is 28%. Ireland does not collect a low amount of taxes.

Where government revenue in Ireland does fall short is for social insurance contributions.

Ireland’s only social contribution is pay-related social insurance (PRSI). Although there are different classes, the typical rates are 4% of gross salary for employee contributions and an additional 10.75% of gross salary for employer contributions. PRSI contributions were equal to 5% of GDP in 2011. The EU average for social contributions was 13% of GDP.
and

Personal income tax revenue in Ireland as a percent of GDP is the eighth highest of the 27 countries in the EU. Ireland collects the equivalent of 9% of GDP in income tax. In 2011, Eurostat reported that there was €14.2bn of personal income tax collected in Ireland with GDP of €156bn. This level is more than Germany, France, Spain and the Netherlands.

There are six EU countries that collect over 10% of GDP in personal income taxes. Unsurprisingly, these include the Scandinavian countries Denmark, Sweden and Finland, as well as Belgium, Italy and the UK.
 

New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top