Taxpayer up €1.4bn on banking investment to date

goosebump

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Probably not one you're going to hear in the media, but the State is making a tidy penny on its recent €7bn investment in BOI and AIB.

€560m of this arises from the 8% coupon on the Preference Shares, while the remainder arises from the the capital appreciation of the shares on the markets.

Not bad for a day's work.
 


draiocht23

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This is a notional profit seeing as the banks can't afford to pay out - and will soon have their greasy palms out looking for more cash.
 

Jock_the_Waster

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Probably not one you're going to hear in the media, but the State is making a tidy penny on its recent €7bn investment in BOI and AIB.

€560m of this arises from the 8% coupon on the Preference Shares, while the remainder arises from the the capital appreciation of the shares on the markets.

Not bad for a day's work.
Where is the proof of payment or are you refering to theoretical?

anyhow, you do realise that the credit holiday offered to Mr Carroll by the same banks equates to + €200 Million p.a.

if Mr Carrolls 'interest holiday' = +€200 Million p.a. and seeing that he is merely 1 developer your theoretical profits wont be long eaten up....
 

conservative green

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Great news. I vote for giving ourselves a dividend. I am concerned the gain will be eaten up otherwise.

Say a 100% dividend? We owe it to ourselves. We could even set up a decent bank with our dividend, it's enough to get started.
 

goosebump

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anyhow, you do realise that the credit holiday offered to Mr Carroll by the same banks equates to + €200 Million p.a.

if Mr Carrolls 'interest holiday' = +€200 Million p.a. and seeing that he is merely 1 developer your theoretical profits wont be long eaten up....
That isn't relevant to the appreciation in the value of the State's investment.
 

Pauli

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That isn't relevant to the appreciation in the value of the State's investment.
Perhaps not. Jock was merely pointing out how the mendacious scumbags masquerading as our government will piss the profit away by bailing out one of their close associates. In time honoured tradition.

Because that's what happens in a gombeen kleptocracy.
 

Dreaded_Estate

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Probably not one you're going to hear in the media, but the State is making a tidy penny on its recent €7bn investment in BOI and AIB.

€560m of this arises from the 8% coupon on the Preference Shares, while the remainder arises from the the capital appreciation of the shares on the markets.

Not bad for a day's work.
What about Anglo?
 

Furze

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Probably not one you're going to hear in the media, but the State is making a tidy penny on its recent €7bn investment in BOI and AIB.

€560m of this arises from the 8% coupon on the Preference Shares, while the remainder arises from the the capital appreciation of the shares on the markets.

Not bad for a day's work.
Rubbish - show the evidence for this.

Appendix 2 Summary Preference Share Term sheet for each of

Allied Irish Banks and Bank of Ireland

(Subject to approval of the EU Commission, Shareholders and Relevant Regulatory Consents)

Preference Shares

Form: Perpetual €3.5 billion Core Tier 1 non-cumulative preference shares plus Warrants (the “New Preference Shares”).

Dividend: Fixed dividend of 8%, payable annually. Dividends payable in cash at the discretion of the bank. If cash dividend not paid, then ordinary shares are issued in lieu at a time no later than the date on which the bank subsequently pays a cash dividend on other Core Tier 1 capital. The voting rights associated with such shares may be exercised from the date the dividend became payable.
 

Malbekh

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Probably not one you're going to hear in the media, but the State is making a tidy penny on its recent €7bn investment in BOI and AIB.

€560m of this arises from the 8% coupon on the Preference Shares, while the remainder arises from the the capital appreciation of the shares on the markets.

Not bad for a day's work.
That's a fair point Goose, the interesting element is that €740m appreciation from the rise in the share value. Do we actually have shares in AIB/BOI? I heard on the radio that we have a 25% stake in the banks, but this is down to representation at board level, not anything physical like.

Can you/anyone clarify that for us? We know the government are desperate not to nationalise the banks, but don't mind taking a majority share like say 49%. Surely all we've done so far is loaned them funds for recapitalisation at exorbitant interest. These loans are more than the market value of the banks, so we can't have received shares in exchange....
 

Hal

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Perhaps not. Jock was merely pointing out how the mendacious scumbags masquerading as our government will piss the profit away by bailing out one of their close associates. In time honoured tradition.

Because that's what happens in a gombeen kleptocracy.
Of course that’s an argument for which you have no proof nor on the basis of the known facts of NAMA can you even make a case for where it MIGHT happen. What you are doing is moving your case from “This recap of the banks is money down the drain” to “even if we make a profit on this money, the Government will waste that anyway”. Moving goal posts to suit yourself I believe is what that’s called.
At the end of the day what we have here is one poster throwing out some facts and you replying with your politically biased opinion and oddly you seem to think one is a match for the other.
 

Hal

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That's a fair point Goose, the interesting element is that €740m appreciation from the rise in the share value. Do we actually have shares in AIB/BOI? I heard on the radio that we have a 25% stake in the banks, but this is down to representation at board level, not anything physical like.

Can you/anyone clarify that for us? We know the government are desperate not to nationalise the banks, but don't mind taking a majority share like say 49%. Surely all we've done so far is loaned them funds for recapitalisation at exorbitant interest. These loans are more than the market value of the banks, so we can't have received shares in exchange....
The Government has a guaranteed option for 25% of the shares of AIB & BoI at a fixed low price with I think up to 5 years to take up that option.
 

Jock_the_Waster

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That isn't relevant to the appreciation in the value of the State's investment.
It is all on the Taxpayers Balance Sheet

what part of your small brain cannot comprehend this fact?

again, I refer you to post 3 and again I ask you..Where is the proof of payment?
 

Malbekh

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The Government has a guaranteed option for 25% of the shares of AIB & BoI at a fixed low price with I think up to 5 years to take up that option.
Hi Hal, how are you? OK, so what you're saying is in exchange for the €3b we pumped into AIB and then BOI, not only did we get an 8% return on our investment, but we also got 2 members on the board of directors and an option on 25% of the shares.

What is the option based on? If AIB/BOI don't pay cash for the 8% return we get ordinary shares instead. But surely the 25% is option is a separate transaction, what's the clause that triggers it?

I'll tell you where I'm coming from:

AIB/BOI can't/won't pay up the 8% dividend in cash, so we get shares over and over and over again. After 5 years we trigger our 25% option. Isn't this back door nationalisation while keeping the other shareholders happy?
 

Jock_the_Waster

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AIB/BOI can't/won't pay up the 8% dividend in cash, so we get shares over and over and over again. After 5 years we trigger our 25% option. Isn't this back door nationalisation while keeping the other shareholders happy?
if left holding worthless stock paper keeps them happy cowen will have acheived his goal

Nationalisation or folding is inevitable.
 

Hal

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Hi Hal, how are you? OK, so what you're saying is in exchange for the €3b we pumped into AIB and then BOI, not only did we get an 8% return on our investment, but we also got 2 members on the board of directors and an option on 25% of the shares.
That's it, yes.

AIB/BOI can't/won't pay up the 8% dividend in cash, so we get shares over and over and over again. After 5 years we trigger our 25% option. Isn't this back door nationalisation while keeping the other shareholders happy?
On its own it's a pretty straight forward option of shares to the value of 25% at a very cheap price, but which the Government only have to take up if there is profit to be made for the taxpayer.

Once NAMA takes the loans off the banks books they are in profit again straight away and will be in a position to pay the 8% in cash.
 

Pauli

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Of course that’s an argument for which you have no proof nor on the basis of the known facts of NAMA can you even make a case for where it MIGHT happen. What you are doing is moving your case from “This recap of the banks is money down the drain” to “even if we make a profit on this money, the Government will waste that anyway”. Moving goal posts to suit yourself I believe is what that’s called.
At the end of the day what we have here is one poster throwing out some facts and you replying with your politically biased opinion and oddly you seem to think one is a match for the other.
No it's not. It's called a long and unhappy experience of watching Ireland get destroyed by a rag-bag of the corrupt, the incompetent and the criminal who carve up the assets of the nation as if they owned them, pandering to those who fund their shabby enterprise and treating the majority of the nations citizens like dog turds. And they show no sign of changing this disgusting behaviour.

That's what it's called.
 
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Malbekh

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On its own it's a pretty straight forward option of shares to the value of 25% at a very cheap price, but which the Government only have to take up if there is profit to be made for the taxpayer.

Once NAMA takes the loans off the banks books they are in profit again straight away and will be in a position to pay the 8% in cash.
OK - thanks for that, almost getting the hang of this now.

This 25% share value - what is the 'very cheap price'?
 

Hal

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Nationalisation or folding is inevitable.
You don't have the necessary facts at you disposal to make that judgement.

The real question is why did I pick your post to make that reply when I had hundreds to choose from? The fact is there is no real answer to that question, you were just handy, I suppose.
 

Jock_the_Waster

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You don't have the necessary facts at you disposal to make that judgement.
I do.

I dont need endless reports. I dont need consultants or advisors.

Feel free to scroll my posts.

The data and market sentiment plus other variable information allows me to draw my conclusions.

I dont do denial.
 


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