Teachers salaries

politicaldonations

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Can someone please post a list of salaries for teachers here in Ireland and a list of salaries for the same teaching positions in other European countries. For comparision.

European run-down of teacher training and starting salaries ~ Cafebabel

Most Polish speak English, maybe we should import some teachers from Poland. The amount they cost looks attractive at twice the price if the above article is accurate.
Time to benchmark the teachers and other public sector peacocks downwards.

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/lesson-one-its-a-good-time-to-teach-1511972.html
 
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peadarmc

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you have to factor in the cost of living here and the fact that the average industrial wage here is a higher (due to inflation levels and cost of living!) so its nowhere near as simplistic as you make it out to be!

The government, as an example, spends €1,000,000 per year on storing defunct e-voting machines. The HSE spends 122,000,000 per year on taxis and buses! the HSE itself is overstaffed! its not all about cutting teachers wages! thats a narrowminded outlook on the overall functioning of government finances. spending in education does not come directly from money received in education. The government can make adequate cuts in areas that NEED cutting and funnell resources into education!

im not a teacher by the way!
 

HanleyS

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The article says that primary school teachers start on close to €40,000. I'll take that as somewhere around €35,000 being the Indo. Even then the figure is questionable seeing as most teachers don't seem to get full time employment until they're a few years into their career. Even at €35,000 it would be competitive with other graduate jobs. Do we want burger flipping to be an attractive and viable career alternative to teaching?
 

politicaldonations

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The point is that wages in Ireland are amongst highest in EU in all areas of public sector. In a free market you would expect Polish teachers earning 5k a year to move here and earn 35k or for wages in Poland to rise and in Ireland to fall so that in time the salary for the same type of teaching job would be relatively the same (in PPP terms) across the EU.
 

peadarmc

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The point is that wages in Ireland are amongst highest in EU in all areas of public sector. In a free market you would expect Polish teachers earning 5k a year to move here and earn 35k or for wages in Poland to rise and in Ireland to fall so that in time the salary for the same type of teaching job would be relatively the same (in PPP terms) across the EU.
i dont disagree with what you're saying but the fact is, our living costs are also among the highest! furthermore, the higher the average industrial wage then the higher teachers salaries are going to be as they are in the college graduate sector of the economy with degree in hand! or H Dip, not sure which these days..! i know you have to start somewhere but teachers are vital to the future knowledge base of our economy - no-one went to college without getting a primary (and secondary) education off those very same teachers!
 

FrankSpeaks

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I read it somewhere that being a teacher in Ireland is the best paid part time job in the world and I believe it!
 

Oppenheimer

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The point is that wages in Ireland are amongst highest in EU in all areas of public sector. In a free market you would expect Polish teachers earning 5k a year to move here and earn 35k or for wages in Poland to rise and in Ireland to fall so that in time the salary for the same type of teaching job would be relatively the same (in PPP terms) across the EU.
Salaries in other jurisdictions are not the metric to use. As someone else said, it is the local labour market that is the proper comparison. Why would anyone do a University degree and H. Dip or teacher training to be paid below other degree level jobs (which do not need a H. Dip) in the economy?

IMO - look at the management of schools for cuts and efficiencies. Start at this level, get that right and there will be a positive trickle down effect on teaching staff. Most prinicipal jobs are derived from longevity in a school and not on performance. Not to say that there are not good principals but the system is rigged to promote mediocrity.
 
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Reason living costs are so high is because public employees are paid to much. Continual pandering to the non productive sectors means the productive sectors end up requiring higher prices just to stand still.

Oncue you will get loads on here claiming how badly paid public employees with nice pensions are looked after.
 

bobbysands81

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Reason living costs are so high is because public employees are paid to much. Continual pandering to the non productive sectors means the productive sectors end up requiring higher prices just to stand still.

Oncue you will get loads on here claiming how badly paid public employees with nice pensions are looked after.
Why don't you get a job in the public service so?
 

adrem

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A significant minority (possibly a majority but i'm not sure) of our teachers do NOT have a university degree - they have the H Dip and that's it.

Arguing that they need to spend some time before they can get a full time job and therefore earn f-all for the first few years is of course true - but it's also true that if you decide (for example) to become an accountant or a solicitor or a barrister or a banker you will earn F-all money for the first few years, have no guaranteed job or guaranteed pension for life, can be sacked for underperformance and have no (realistic) option of striking anytime you don't get your way - also btw don't get salary increases based on what someone who doesn't do the same job, gets paid.

It would be a help those aspiring teachers if the politicians that are holding teaching positions in reserve in case their 20+ year career in the Dail collapses were forced to let go. Also would help if principals were forced to stop using retired teachers as Subs and instead gave the Sub jobs to the new teachers.

The issues around ppars and e-voting are smokescreen to the issue around teachers pay. There is simply no getting away from the fact that our teachers are better paid than their counterparts around Europe - so (imho) where they roar and shout about attacking the weak and vulnerable and positioning ourselves at the bottom of the pecking order in terms of class sizes it IS relevant to put back to them the FACT that the class size issue could be reversed IF they reduced their pay. They would still remain at the upper half of the European pay table - we're not talking about massive reductions - just 5%.

That said I DO agree that there is ridiculous waste and lack of accountability all across the civil service and that if this was sorted it would free up substantial amounts of funding. (I know that's very much a FG viewpoint so don't worry I'm getting counselling !) My solution though is one that requires backbone and a little bit of give from the teachers rather than constant take (the ATM mentality that their own leadership espoused). I'm suggesting that we do undertake a root and branch review of the efficiency in the service and I'm accepting that we will find the cost savings that RB talks about. This will take time though - In the meantime (to quote the teachers themselves) children will be going through their education one time only. So lets have the teachers take the long term view rather than the children. Let the teachers agree to a 5% pay cut effective 01.01.09 and no increases during 2009 and 2010. At the end of 2010 / beginning of 2011 they are guaranteed a return to their current salaries and PROVIDED the exchequer situation has been recovered (and remember we'll have 2 full years of reforming the civil service which if RB is right should have generated very substantial cuts) they have their salaries re-fixed at the level they would have otherwise been at. In fact we could incentivise this and say that a once off payment of the salary foregone will be paid in 2011 (if we have the resources to do that).

I find it very hard to see why FF, FG, Lab, Green and SF would not advocate this type of approach. It protects the exchequer, protects the children and the services to the children and it isn't that big an ask from a group that are protected from most of the downturn with guaranteed jobs and pensions - and in any event get it back in 2011 !!
 

Cillian

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We have the second best paid teachers in the world.

Second only two South Korea.


And I don't believe that we are in fact the second most expensive country to live in on that fact.



And as obie1kenobe has already pointed out, increasing the pay packages, is only inflationary. Thus creating a whole new need to increase again the next year, and the next year, and the next year..
 

JollyRedGiant

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The article says that primary school teachers start on close to €40,000. I'll take that as somewhere around €35,000 being the Indo. Even then the figure is questionable seeing as most teachers don't seem to get full time employment until they're a few years into their career. Even at €35,000 it would be competitive with other graduate jobs. Do we want burger flipping to be an attractive and viable career alternative to teaching?
You are accurate here -

I qualified as a secondary school teacher a year and a half ago. I do not have a contract . If I have work I get a phone call at 8.50am in the morning and am told we need you in 10 minutes to cover a class. I might not get another class for the rest of the day - but I have to be ready every morning at 8.50am in case I get that call. If I don't go when called - I don't get called again.

Some weeks I will get 20 hours teaching, some weeks 10, some weeks 4 - I don't get paid for holidays and I have to work teaching French students who come over here for English during the summer (part-time) to pay my family's bills. There are hundreds of teachers in the same boat as me and from next January I will have no work.

I am registered with the teaching council - but to complete my certification I have to work 735 hours teaching - the problem is that the teaching council only could the weeks when you work more than 18 hours in one week.

How do you get a job -

In the voluntary sector (the majority of schools) - if there is a vacancy they first offer it to surplus teachers in other schools if they have the subjects (the teacher has to take it).

If there is no teacher with the subjects then it is offered to teachers on the voluntary transfer panel.

If there is no teacher with the subjects on the transfer panel then they offer it to the supplementary panel. To get on the supplementary panel you have to work for two years with at least 18hours per week in one school - or if you work in more than one school you have to do three years. There are 3,500 teachers on the supplementary panel. If the supplementary panel is exhausted they advertise the job.

Most teachers hope to get a contract for a few hours in a school and hope to pick up extra money by getting subbing. After three years you might get a CID (contract of indefinite duration) but it will be based on the small number of contract hours not your total hours worked.

In my school at least 30% of the teachers are not permanent but on CID's. Most of these do not have full hours.

So you can look at the teachers salaries and say - 'they're well paid' but at least 25%-30% of teachers do not get a full-time salary and many (like me) get significantly less.

How many other jobs would you find workers having to jump through such hoops to try and get a job?

permanent - pensionable - my a*se

more like dogsbody
 

Clanrickard

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FYI - teachers fund their own pensions and salary protection out of their own pockets.
No they don't. The money comes from the private sector.
 

Clanrickard

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How many other jobs would you find workers having to jump through such hoops to try and get a job?

permanent - pensionable - my a*se

more like dogsbody
I agree with you with regard to start off teachers. But the permanent ones have a cushy number. Also don't you agree that there should be rewwards for the good teachers and punishemnet and sackings for the duds. Thereby making way for those starting off on the career ladde.
 

Clanrickard

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Again - Teachers fund their own pensions, deducted fortnightly from their wages, and subject to the same conditions as any private sector employee. In this they are treated differently from civil servants who enjoy a state-backed, guaranteed pension.
Their wages come from the fruits of the private sector. If you are employed by the government you don't pay taxes or pay a pension plan. This is a double accounting trick. Give the money to public servants and then take some back. Unneccessary bureacracy.
 

blucey

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A significant minority (possibly a majority but i'm not sure) of our teachers do NOT have a university degree - they have the H Dip and that's it.
!!
And they get into the H Dip with no undergraduate degree? Wow....what university does that?
 

Middleaged

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Originally Posted by D.Harry
Again - Teachers fund their own pensions, deducted fortnightly from their wages, and subject to the same conditions as any private sector employee. In this they are treated differently from civil servants who enjoy a state-backed, guaranteed pension.

Are you saying that teachers pensions are not giving a contribution by the Govt.? because if you are your facts need review. Teachers have for the most part "defined benefit" pension with 2/3 final salary schemes.
 

Oppenheimer

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There is a lot of pure an utter shyte being posted on this thread. The one class of the public service that provides a valuable service is getting it in the neck for the shortcomings of the non-productive elements of the public service. The fact that most of you can type and write (though thinking is questionable) is down to the fact you were taught (cue the one home schooled genius response).

I am not a teacher, I was at one point before I went into the private sector - because I had higher salary growth prospects. I respect the teaching profession for what it is. I completely disrespect the dog's dinner that has been made of managing it. I agree with the idea of performance-related pay and also that there are many "duds" in the system BUT there are "duds" too who started out great and became institutionalised by the system.

All reducing teachers' salaries will do is to disincentivise them to do a good job - even those who do a great job at the moment. Do you want to expose the human beings you value over all others to that? I know I do not. Again, I would like to kick out the people who run this system and I have a particular ire dating back years to the Dept. of Education and the idiots who have the cushy numbers there who have royally f*cked it up as a system AND who take my money and put it into their pensions (not the teacher's pensions).

Someone mentioned doing a review (Adrem I think) - yes, a good idea in principle - but to give this idea to the current mentality that exists in our Govt. will just give them license to waste more money on consultants rather than force the Dept. of Education to clean up its act.
 

zakalwe1

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i agree, notice how the cuts don't extend to the admin staff in the depts, only substitute teachers etc. i.e. cuts to front line staff but not admin (expendible) staff.
 

Big Bobo

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Oh yes it's nothing to do with capitalism in crisis, sub-prime lending, 100% mortgages, construction falling on it's @rse etc It's all about teachers being overpaid! Quick let's bring in some cheap foreign labour and sack them all!

I don't blame the people on here for being so ignorant, it's the mainstream media and rabid right wing "economists" who are to blame.
 


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