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Temporarily giving up our sovereignty is in fact a part of the solution.


roc_

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Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,455
Our gombeen government and their confrères in the dail believe that too much money is being spent on a welfare system where the recipients are already living in abject poverty; and on a health system - the experience of which is often akin to a third world health service (or worse, since the HSE has tried to turn our doctors and nurses into mere cogs in the machine). And so on.

But no. This is not the case.

Rather, they are spending too much money on themselves and their cronies. But it is obvious that they will continue to line their own nest and make excuses how this is 'for the good of the country'. The only way for THIS AREA OF SPENDING is to be targetted, is to temporarily relinquish our sovereignty.

a. stop facilitating easy access to the politically favoured to lucrative over-rewarded government contracts, over-payments for land, tax breaks, and subsidies etc.

b. stop government awarding themselves and their cronies salaries fit for kings. - Opposition parties and councillors and quangos and top civil service personnel included.

c. withdraw government facilitated market supports, and break up the implicit cartels that make doing business, renting, going to the doctor, going shopping etc. in this country prohibitively expensive.

d. put an end to certain privileged parts of society being entitled to live off the high rents and mortgage repayments that an 'underclass' are forced to bear.

e. put an end to all types of 'rent-seeking' in our economy


It's a no-brainer - IT IS OUR GOVERNMENT, THEIR CRONIES, AND THE SYSTEM THEY HAVE PROPAGATED THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Not anything else - so, we need to get rid of them until such time as we become properly capable of ruling ourselves. Being capable of ruling ourselves entails such as getting rid of the kind of dumb commercial, partisan, institutionalised narratives promoted by RTE and our national newspapers; making our workplaces more dignified and our workers in general more empowered; grinding the gombeen man into the dirt so that he can never rise again; nurturing our urban and rural environments to better reflect the more worthy facets of our national character; developing our personal capacities for civilised debate so we are better able to listen to other views, and developing an adequate sense of purpose with regard to the greater public good... We would be better able to develop our capabilities in these under another sovereign.

Once we have re-gained these kind of capabilities and maturities, then, it might make sense to talk of ruling ourselves. Until then, relinquishing sovereignty temporarily may hold the impetus we seek to many of the reforms we so desperately need.
 

roc_

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Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,455
To those who might say, well, the budget for welfare and health IS very high, and a significant component of the budget, so we need to cut them anyway... I would say, why is it high?

A. Individual welfare payments HAVE to be high so that people can pay the high costs they are faced with in this country - the welfare budget is in effect siphoned off by (i) doctors, lawyers, landlords and other professionals, and (ii) in retail purchases the prices paid are siphoned off into paying high commercial rents and other taxes that are re-circulated as subsidies and grants to Eamon Ryan's buddies and others.

B. The health budget has to be high to pay for (i) the higher levels of HSE management who command extraordinary salaries and in reality don't understand the entity that is the health service. - The inefficiency this lack of understanding engenders is extraordinary (ii) the consultants who comprise another cartel commanding ridiculous salaries. (iii) various Irish suppliers to the health service who are again faced with extremely high costs of doing business due to cronyism and eamon ryan and all the rest.

So if you want to reduce the budgets for welafare and health, you need to go to the ROOT of the problem. ie. as per the OP.
 

FreshStart

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Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
705
I agree. The only thing this government has demonstrated is an ability to feather their own nests. I know I shouldn't be surprised, I survived the 1980s after all, but I am still astounded at the government's ability to place the unemployed, children and disabled on the front trenches. Jesus, even when the Titanic was sinking women and children were the first on the lifeboats. I have no respect for this government and barely any left for the opposition.

I think we lost our sovereignty a long time ago. We're just waiting around now for an official announcement and finally we'll be able to call a spade a spade.

Mr. Olli Rehn is due over soon to "dictate" to us the need for us to dismantle our welfare system (which despite everything was always seriously retrenched from a policy point of view). I suggest a mass protest by the plain people of Ireland to highlight our feelings to this visit. C'mon folks, let's do it. We won't regret it.
 

FreshStart

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
705
Finally, the main banks have been nationalised. The government will cut the welfare payments of the newly unemployed yet claim they are helpless to interfere with interest rates. They are helpless because they are not interested. They are not interested in anything that helps the citizens of Ireland get back on the feet.

The French are protesting because they believe there is something intrinsically valuable about France (liberty, equality and fraternity). The Irish are perplexed by this and I believe that is why we aren't protesting. We have spent centuries living in fear of our masters and I am now wondering if that constant default position has damaged our psyches.
 

eoghanacht

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
33,340
Our gombeen government and their confrères in the dail believe that too much money is being spent on a welfare system where the recipients are already living in abject poverty; and on a health system - the experience of which is often akin to a third world health service (or worse, since the HSE has tried to turn our doctors and nurses into mere cogs in the machine). And so on.

But no. This is not the case.

Rather, they are spending too much money on themselves and their cronies. But it is obvious that they will continue to line their own nest and make excuses how this is 'for the good of the country'. The only way for THIS AREA OF SPENDING is to be targetted, is to temporarily relinquish our sovereignty.

a. stop facilitating easy access to the politically favoured to lucrative over-rewarded government contracts, over-payments for land, tax breaks, and subsidies etc.

b. stop government awarding themselves and their cronies salaries fit for kings. - Opposition parties and councillors and quangos and top civil service personnel included.

c. withdraw government facilitated market supports, and break up the implicit cartels that make doing business, renting, going to the doctor, going shopping etc. in this country prohibitively expensive.

d. put an end to certain privileged parts of society being entitled to live off the high rents and mortgage repayments that an 'underclass' are forced to bear.

e. put an end to all types of 'rent-seeking' in our economy


It's a no-brainer - IT IS OUR GOVERNMENT, THEIR CRONIES, AND THE SYSTEM THEY HAVE PROPAGATED THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Not anything else - so, we need to get rid of them until such time as we become properly capable of ruling ourselves. Being capable of ruling ourselves entails such as getting rid of the kind of dumb commercial, partisan, institutionalised narratives promoted by RTE and our national newspapers; making our workplaces more dignified and our workers in general more empowered; grinding the gombeen man into the dirt so that he can never rise again; nurturing our urban and rural environments to better reflect the more worthy facets of our national character; developing our personal capacities for civilised debate so we are better able to listen to other views, and developing an adequate sense of purpose with regard to the greater public good... We would be better able to develop our capabilities in these under another sovereign.

Once we have re-gained these kind of capabilities and maturities, then, it might make sense to talk of ruling ourselves. Until then, relinquishing sovereignty temporarily may hold the impetus we seek to many of the reforms we so desperately need.


Yeah, i have been of the opinion that the IMF should come in if only to save us from ourselves.
 

eoghanacht

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
33,340
I
Mr. Olli Rehn is due over soon to "dictate" to us the need for us to dismantle our welfare system (which despite everything was always seriously retrenched from a policy point of view). I suggest a mass protest by the plain people of Ireland to highlight our feelings to this visit. C'mon folks, let's do it. We won't regret it.
I have to agree with what Cael says about cutting the dole, in that i welcome it because it's not until paddy has to surrender nights and days in some cases of 'pints and having the craic' that well see any form of change.

It's only when people's backs are to the wall and they have more to gain than lose will they step outside their own comfort zones and demand a better society.
 

FreshStart

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
705
And another thing, why should we pay higher taxes for an even worse welfare, health, education system). We are paying for a bank bailout and government mismanagement. Let's be frank here, the bailout is the problem. You can crib all you like about spending 5 euros for every 3 euros taken in but the reality is when Ireland had low unemployment rates, the welfare system was manageable. Getting to people back to work is the solution. This should be the top of the government's agenda. Why isn't it?

Fianna Fail took over from the Rainbow Coalition with an economy in good shape and have proceeded to destroy it.

Lenihan is a fool but should we really let him drag us all down?
 

FreshStart

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Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
705
I'm sorry but retrenching the welfare system even further will only create destitution. I genuinely believe the problems of poverty are starting to spiral out of control. I don't think it's fair that children will have to experience this just to make a point. We've been threatened by our own government, the EU, the markets, the bondholders and I think we have to say ENOUGH. We're at the end. I wish we were fighting like the French. Imagine, fighting against the retirement age by two years. Oh joy.
 

eoghanacht

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
33,340
I'm sorry but retrenching the welfare system even further will only create destitution. I genuinely believe the problems of poverty are starting to spiral out of control. I don't think it's fair that children will have to experience this just to make a point. We've been threatened by our own government, the EU, the markets, the bondholders and I think we have to say ENOUGH. We're at the end. I wish we were fighting like the French. Imagine, fighting against the retirement age by two years. Oh joy.
Fighting for the sake of it? Why?

Unless it's a fight for a new Republic then i see no point. Rioting for what? So FG or Labour can get in and make a balls of it all over again?
 

FreshStart

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
705
Fighting for the sake of it? Why?

Unless it's a fight for a new Republic then i see no point. Rioting for what? So FG or Labour can get in and make a balls of it all over again?
Yes, I know...what are we fighting for. But every day with FF is another in despair. I concede, I'm clutching at straws but if I lose my righteous anger, I'll just get depressed.
 

myksav

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Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
23,546
And exactly to which foreign power do you wish to hand Irish soveriegnty?

The IMF cannot actually rule or govern a country.
 

kerdasi amaq

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Joined
Aug 24, 2009
Messages
4,690
What you really want is to remove Fianna Fáil from office.

It's all the fault of the British anyway, as the twig is inclined, so the tree is bent.
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,455
And exactly to which foreign power do you wish to hand Irish soveriegnty?

The IMF cannot actually rule or govern a country.
Perhaps we could hold interviews?!

What we are looking for is an entity that can:

(a) oversee the basic administration of this country

(b) demonstrate that they are ready and able to induce and facilitate the tackling of any and all of the cronyism that is crippling this country

(c) help engender the kind of conditions we need to begin becoming capable, responsible, citizens - capable of proper debate, and capable of holding the greater public good above personal self-interest etc. As per the OP.

I suppose one of the biggest factors would be to try and choose an entity that has demonstrated a willingness to tackle the symbiosis that currently exists between big business and government. In this regard, I would be drawn more towards the EU, rather than the US (although they are not perfect in this regard, at least France and German have demonstrated a willingness to face down these interests within their past social and cultural traditions. Anyway they seem to be WAY better in this regard than what we have at present...)... I think if we put our aspirations regarding (a), (b) and (c) to them, they would provide assurances to us that they would try to help us in this regard. And as I said, make clear that it is a temporary arrangement, until such time as we have overcome this rot of cronyism that is the reason for putting forward the proposition.
 

fool

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Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
150
You know the IMF don't actually administer countries?
They leave local politicians in place, but strictly control the financial parametres under which they operate. They will have no effect whatsoever on the amount of cronyism and corruption in the country.
 
Last edited:

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,455
You know the IMF don't actually administer countries?
They leave local politicians in place, but strictly control the financial parametres under which they operate. They will have no effect whatsoever on the amount of cronyism and corruption in the country.
I wasn't necessarily talking about the IMF. A few posts up, I did mention the EU. But, it need not neccesarily be so.

Anyway, I think you are wrong about the IMF regarding the tackling of cronyism and corruption. - Here is former chief economist of the IMF, Simon Johnson in his article last year, “The Quiet Coup”. To quote from his article:

--------------------------------------------
“But I must tell you, to IMF officials, all of these crises looked depressingly similar. Each country, of course, needed a loan, but more than that, each needed to make big changes so that the loan could really work. Almost always, countries in crisis need to learn to live within their means after a period of excess—exports must be increased, and imports cut—and the goal is to do this without the most horrible of recessions. Naturally, the fund’s economists spend time figuring out the policies—budget, money supply, and the like—that make sense in this context. Yet the economic solution is seldom very hard to work out.

No, the real concern of the fund’s senior staff, and the biggest obstacle to recovery, is almost invariably the politics of countries in crisis.

Typically, these countries are in a desperate economic situation for one simple reason—the powerful elites within them overreached in good times and took too many risks. Emerging-market governments and their private-sector allies commonly form a tight-knit—and, most of the time, genteel—oligarchy, running the country rather like a profit-seeking company in which they are the controlling shareholders…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>”
--------------------------------------------
 

Libero

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Joined
May 22, 2004
Messages
3,000
You know the IMF don't actually administer countries?
They leave local politicians in place, but strictly control the financial parametres under which they operate. They will have no effect whatsoever on the amount of cronyism and corruption in the country.
Exactly.

Typically, the IMF provides emergency funding to a country that can't borrow at affordable rates from the markets. In doing so, it sets strict conditions, but those normally relate to the overall sums and the repayment schedule, rather than micro-managing the affairs of the country and implementing some sort of programme of insitutional reforms.

The IMF has neither the staff resources, local knowledge or interest to go tinkering with the fundamentals of the subject country's political system. If anything, it will see continuity in the political system as helping support business and investor conference.

The EU/ECB has made it clear it wants to involve the IMF in Eurozone interventions. That's in order to access the resources of the IMF, it's relative independence and credibility, and in order not to sideline and undermine that institution. See here: Statement by the EC, ECB, and IMF on the First Review Mission to Greece
And here: Greece and the IMF -- Page 1 of 9

All in all, nobody should cling to the fantasy that should Ireland formally lose economic sovereignty, this will automatically see outside agencies imposing significant political change.

The opposite may happen: in a scenario of sharply decreased living standards, and where power and the ability to govern seems to have been taken away from domestic politicians, those politicians may see patronage and clientelism as ever more important in securing votes and their own financial futures - especially if the IMF/ECB has left them in charge of the decisions about who gets cut and who gets protected.
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

And once we hand over 'temporary' control of our sovereignty how do we get it back?
 

bokuden

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Joined
Sep 23, 2010
Messages
11,349
Why not give it to me? I'm good with money AND I'm Irish.
 

selkies

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Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
198
Website
www.politicswiki.ie
Why not give it to me? I'm good with money AND I'm Irish.
LOL

-----------------------

I think we need more democracy not less.
We need to learn to help ourselves, we need to learn to fight to make sure that our voices are heard. If you hate your government what have you done about it? It's not enough to vote.

Educate yourself on the problems in your country, the solutions available and the solutions used in other countries
Email your TDs, let them know what you think
Begin the campaign now for better government
 
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