The Backstop

death or glory

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'Removing the backstop' unilaterally would be a breach of an international agreement, signed.

The UK doesn't have the right to unilaterally cancel the backstop. They would need our agreement on any change there and I would suggest that they should not be offered that opportunity.

There is nothing to be gained for us in allowing such a unilateral move, and we should be prepared to veto any deal proposing such a move in terms of any nascent deal between Brussels and Westminster.

We have quite a lot to gain by insisting the backstop remains in place.
And you have quite a lot to lose if the backstop remains in place and its youse who has to enforce the border.
It's your call, but don't be trying to blame us for your decisions.
 


recedite

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'Removing the backstop' unilaterally would be a breach of an international agreement, signed.

The UK doesn't have the right to unilaterally cancel the backstop. They would need our agreement on any change there and I would suggest that they should not be offered that opportunity.

There is nothing to be gained for us in allowing such a unilateral move, and we should be prepared to veto any deal proposing such a move in terms of any nascent deal between Brussels and Westminster.

We have quite a lot to gain by insisting the backstop remains in place.
1. The WA is not an international agreement, it is a proposal that has been put to the UK parliament 3 times ,and rejected each time.
2. There is everything to be gained by us, if UK leaves with a deal, as opposed to leaving without one. Two years of just continuing on with the status quo for a start.
3. We are already vetoing the WA by insisting it cannot go ahead without the Varruca Backstop. That's exactly what we are doing.
4. We have nothing to gain by insisting The Backstop remains in a rejected deal.
Its a rejected Backstop in a rejected deal, and both are currently in the dustbin.
 

recedite

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I don't believe it is going to happen, the EU would also be humiliated having repeatedly said no to then roll over, it would damage the EU as an institution more than a hard brexit.
Its not the EU who would be humiliated, its only Varruca and Simple Simon Coveney. As soon as this pair change the stance of the Irish govt. all other EU prime ministers will back them. The EU as an institution will then say they consistently backed the position of the member state (Ireland) whatever that position happened to be.
 

wombat

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Its a rejected Backstop in a rejected deal, and both are currently in the dustbin.
According to the ERG, remove the backstop and they will oppose the WA. Its up to the UK parliament to decide on whether they leave without an agreement.
 

recedite

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According to the ERG, remove the backstop and they will oppose the WA. Its up to the UK parliament to decide on whether they leave without an agreement.
Only a few hardliners among the group. These would be far outnumbered by the DUP and probably many Labour MPs who would get on board.
I'm not sure if anyone has actually done the maths though, or if they have, the info hasn't been made publicly available.
 

Cdebru

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No it doesn't.
The problem with the backstop is that we are tied into it and can't leave without the EU's permission.
That is totally unconstitutional as that means we could be tied into the EU forever.

With the backstop you get a hard border on the 1st November courtesy if Eire and the EU.
And the problem with no backstop is that it then the border becomes a bargaining chip for the UK in any subsequent trade deal, proof of that is the current state of affairs, the UK are threatening no deal and a hard border as a bargaining chip in the exit deal stage.
 

Cdebru

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Its not the EU who would be humiliated, its only Varruca and Simple Simon Coveney. As soon as this pair change the stance of the Irish govt. all other EU prime ministers will back them. The EU as an institution will then say they consistently backed the position of the member state (Ireland) whatever that position happened to be.
So your premise relies on the Irish Govt to suddenly change tack and unilaterally ask the EU to remove the backstop?

It is fairly clear that is the UK govts current plan and is being played out by their minions in the Irish media, but it is not gaining any traction.
 

recedite

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It is fairly clear that is the UK govts current plan and is being played out by their minions in the Irish media, but it is not gaining any traction.
The Irish media are starting to show the first signs of discontent with the govt. position.
But if you think that's a bad thing, or a form of treason, then you don't understand the benefits to democracy of having a free press and a functioning opposition.
Both of which appear to have either been asleep or absent for the last 2 or 3 years, when it came to discussing The Backstop as a policy objective or a strategy.
 

wombat

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Only a few hardliners among the group.
Johnson has thrown in his lot with them. The main objective now is the survival of the conservative party and that means leaving the EU on Halloween.
 

death or glory

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Do you think that all NI exports to Great Britain go Larne --> Stranraer?
When did I ever post that it even infer it.
I said if Eire don't enforce the NI border, all UK exports to the EU could quite legally go Larne to Stranraer.
 

Cdebru

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The Irish media are starting to show the first signs of discontent with the govt. position.
But if you think that's a bad thing, or a form of treason, then you don't understand the benefits to democracy of having a free press and a functioning opposition.
Both of which appear to have either been asleep or absent for the last 2 or 3 years, when it came to discussing The Backstop as a policy objective or a strategy.
No elements in the Irish media are trying to influence the Irish government, on behalf of their masters in the UK.
That's not an example of a free press it is an example of the hiring of paid agents by a foreign government.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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'Removing the backstop' unilaterally would be a breach of an international agreement, signed.

The UK doesn't have the right to unilaterally cancel the backstop. They would need our agreement on any change there and I would suggest that they should not be offered that opportunity.

There is nothing to be gained for us in allowing such a unilateral move, and we should be prepared to veto any deal proposing such a move in terms of any nascent deal between Brussels and Westminster.

We have quite a lot to gain by insisting the backstop remains in place.
Nancy Pelosi and Congress agree with that. The supposedly wonderful Bolton/Trump trade agreement with the USA is unlikely to be the easiest deal in history.
 

shiel

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The following seems to be the Brexit reality.

Brexiteers have declared economic war on the rest of Europe.

Brexiteers have torn up the Good Friday Agreement signed by the UK and Ireland which drew a line under centuries of colonial rule.

The London media and the Brexiteers have a narrative that blames everyone else especially Paddy for the consequences.

When that narrative is challenged Brexiteers get upset and blame Paddy even more.

Sadly some of the Irish media and politicians have joined that narrative.
 

Apple in Eden

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The following seems to be the Brexit reality.

Brexiteers have declared economic war on the rest of Europe.

Brexiteers have torn up the Good Friday Agreement signed by the UK and Ireland which drew a line under centuries of colonial rule.

The London media and the Brexiteers have a narrative that blames everyone else especially Paddy for the consequences.

When that narrative is challenged Brexiteers get upset and blame Paddy even more.

Sadly some of the Irish media and politicians have joined that narrative.
Maybe your narrative is just plain wrong.
1. Explain in what ways economic war has been declared?
2. How and when has will the GFA be torn up?
3. You suggest that all the London media sing from the same sheet explain
 

shiel

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Maybe your narrative is just plain wrong.
1. Explain in what ways economic war has been declared?
2. How and when has will the GFA be torn up?
3. You suggest that all the London media sing from the same sheet explain
The EU is a union of European democracies each of which negotiated to cooperate in matters of mutual interest.

Each has a veto in matters of vital national interest.

The UK decided to leave and negotiated an agreement that would prevent the tearing up of international agreements and would maintain international good will.

Brexiteers, however, want to have a no-deal exit which tears up international agreements including the Belfast Agreement which draws a line under centuries of colonial rule.

Brexiteers want to declare economic war on the citizens of the rest of the EU and want to re-erect the border in Ireland.

Then they blame the EU.

Hypocrisy is too mild a word.
 

Talk Back

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Finally, you're getting it.
Don't patronise me, you ignoramus.

May claimed in every speech about the backstop that the UK will do international trade deals for goods and services..

In the context of Ireland, that means a de-facto border between Ireland as a whole and Britain in the Irish Sea.

You claim it won't, because you claim May is referring to services.

You were asked to post a link to back up your bullsh1t claim that the UK can do independent service trade deals with other countries under the terms of the Backstop in the Withdrawal Agreement.

Instead you posted a link to a 600 page document in a stupid attempt to fob people off - and when challenged to point out where in the 600 page document your bullsh1t claim is substantiated - you could not.

So let this sink into that cabbage that holds your ears apart - in May's own words. Goods and services - 26 minutes in.

 

Talk Back

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Maybe your narrative is just plain wrong.
1. Explain in what ways economic war has been declared?
2. How and when has will the GFA be torn up?
3. You suggest that all the London media sing from the same sheet explain
Get real - Brexit is a real threat to the GFA reunification of Ireland process.

The EU know this - the USA know this - the world knows this.

Only yesterday as reported on BBC News, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi warned the brits, for the third time in as many months, that there will be no trade deal between the UK and the USA unless the new de-facto border between Ireland as a whole and Britain is back where it belongs, in the Irish Sea.

“If Brexit undermines the Good Friday accord, there will be no chance of a U.S.-U.K. trade agreement passing the Congress. The peace of the Good Friday Agreement is treasured by the American people and will be fiercely defended on a bicameral and bipartisan basis in the United States Congress.”

 

Apple in Eden

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The EU is a union of European democracies each of which negotiated to cooperate in matters of mutual interest.

Each has a veto in matters of vital national interest.

The UK decided to leave and negotiated an agreement that would prevent the tearing up of international agreements and would maintain international good will.

Brexiteers, however, want to have a no-deal exit which tears up international agreements including the Belfast Agreement which draws a line under centuries of colonial rule.

Brexiteers want to declare economic war on the citizens of the rest of the EU and want to re-erect the border in Ireland.

Then they blame the EU.

Hypocrisy is too mild a word.
sory but you just reprated yourself. please explain how this democratic mandate amounts to economic warfare? can any nation ever leave this club. GDF torn up? please explain how. If you can. then we can debate.
 

shiel

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sory but you just reprated yourself. please explain how this democratic mandate amounts to economic warfare? can any nation ever leave this club. GDF torn up? please explain how. If you can. then we can debate.
Cut off from a home market of 500 million people.

Declaration of economic war on nearly thirty European democracies in a continent with a history of centuries of conflict.

Tearing up the Good Friday Agreement an international agreement signed with a former colony to draw a line under centuries of colonial rule.

Imposition of a hard border on the island of Ireland.

Imposition of a hard border on the Irish sea.

Imposition of a hard border on the English Channel.

Imposition of a hard border on the North Sea.

Imposition of a hard border on the North Atlantic.

Years of re-negotiation with the EU with WTO replacing EU rules.

Years of re-negotiation with individual countries in the rest of the world within WTO rules.

Cooperating with Putin, Trump and European fascists in dismantling the EU the most advanced effort at international cooperation in the world.

All motivated by racist contempt.
 


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