The Battle of Clontarf in 1014: an analysis by a theoretical physicist and mathematician

Wascurito

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I can't help but feel a frisson of pleasure that the historical revisionists have received a comeuppance. They have important things to say but sometimes it seems that they're reinterpreting vast swathes of history based on the prevailing attitudes of this year or last year.
 


PeacefulViking

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Note that the study does not provide any new evidence that the traditional chronicles are accurate. The network analysis is consistent with the view that the chronicler sought to portray of a conflict between Irish and Vikings, but I would suspect that would be the natural result of chronicler propaganda.
 

runwiththewind

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Interesting choice of words... But I've read stuff about Viking factions looking at the battle from the walls of Dublin, possibly waiting to see who best to align with next. It seems more likely to me that the Vikings simply assimilated. Just on the basis that there are no records at all of the taking of Dublin by any indigenous group around that time and surely there would be.

All we know for sure is that Boru was killed and the Vikings stayed on in their city. That must be significant.
But it wasn't their city. Dublin was settled before the Vikings. Recent achaeological discoveries in Cork show Cork was settled before the Vikings and Cork is older than Waterford.
 

GDPR

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Note that the study does not provide any new evidence that the traditional chronicles are accurate. The network analysis is consistent with the view that the chronicler sought to portray of a conflict between Irish and Vikings, but I would suspect that would be the natural result of chronicler propaganda.
So you are providing the Viking viewpoint? Thank you.

The analysers conceded that the study wasn't perfect as they were relying on the texts available. I'll repost a bit from the OP:

The team admits the analysis relies on the accuracy of the relationships described in the sources, so it may not be perfect:
But even though the text is biased in its character descriptions, [Kenna] doesn’t think its authors would have altered the actual alliances and conflicts. “There’s an art to propaganda,” Kenna says. “You can’t falsify too much or else people won’t accept it.”

I don't know whether there was any bias against the Vikings as I haven't read the source material, but it is likely there was. But they were defeated, I think you'll have to agree. The question posited was whether the Vikings were the main enemy or Irish doing their usual thing of fighting each other and the Viking defeat coincidental. Or the Irish did the amazing thing of uniting to defeat a common enemy. It seems it was the latter.
 

Volatire

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Interesting article, but I think the revisionist historians will be very happy.

The hope of the paper is that the obvious biases of the underlying text (Cogadh Gaedhel re Gallaibh is jingoistic pro-Irish) are completely absent from the social network that it implicitly describes.

Even with this strong assumption, the conflict was far from simple Irish v Viking. In fact it is closer to ρ=0 which describes a chaotic conflict not organised along ethnic lines.



Strangely, the paper does not give the statistical uncertainly in ρ.

Of course, it is still possible that the ethnic biases of Cogadh Gaedhel re Gallaibh infect the analysis and the true value of ρ>0.
 

between the bridges

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Interesting article, but I think the revisionist historians will be very happy.

The hope of the paper is that the obvious biases of the underlying text (Cogadh Gaedhel re Gallaibh is jingoistic pro-Irish) are completely absent from the social network that it implicitly describes.

Even with this strong assumption, the conflict was far from simple Irish v Viking. In fact it is closer to ρ=0 which describes a chaotic conflict not organised along ethnic lines.



Strangely, the paper does not give the statistical uncertainly in ρ.

Of course, it is still possible that the ethnic biases of Cogadh Gaedhel re Gallaibh infect the analysis and the true value of ρ>0.
Interesting formula thon, moi gave it a wee go and the answer tis 1690...
 

wombat

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The O'Neill's of Shane's castle got their name by royal decree through the female line. Self styling himself 'The is a historical distortion and besides the government has abandoned acknowledging claims to head of Irish families because of the McCarthy fiasco.

Isn't Cameron's wife from one of the richest families in England?

Actually the hisyory of old Irish family names would made a great thread.
I was checking a theory I had that MacDonald in Scotland and McDonnell in Antrim were the result of different translations and found that the current lord of Antrim who's name is McDonnell is descended from some English guy who bought the title and later changed his name - just another piece of useless P.i information:lol:
 

Talk Back

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2002 AD? Twas Judge Dredd at it?
Ireland was a Nation and recognised throughout the western world as such, with its own High King centuries before the 10th century upstart England even existed.

When people in the ex Roman Province of Britannia were walking around on their knuckles - Ireland was spreading religion and education around the world.
 
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Talk Back

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I was checking a theory I had that MacDonald in Scotland and McDonnell in Antrim were the result of different translations and found that the current lord of Antrim who's name is McDonnell is descended from some English guy who bought the title and later changed his name - just another piece of useless P.i information:lol:
Mac and mc mean the same thing. All Mac's in Scotland are Irish. Scotland was Irish - that is how it got its name. The Scottish language is the Irish language. The jive talk, "Ulster Scots" is really the jive talk Ulster Scots/Irish.
 

EUrJokingMeRight

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The O'Neill's of Shane's castle got their name by royal decree through the female line. Self styling himself 'The is a historical distortion and besides the government has abandoned acknowledging claims to head of Irish families because of the McCarthy fiasco.

Isn't Cameron's wife from one of the richest families in England?

Actually the hisyory of old Irish family names would made a great thread.
Indeed it would...but too much unreliability in official records. However official records are often wrong, particularly in Ireland given the motivations of certain factions and destruction of texts over time. Hard to distinguish fact from fiction.
 

Talk Back

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Indeed it would...but too much unreliability in official records. However official records are often wrong, particularly in Ireland given the motivations of certain factions and destruction of texts over time. Hard to distinguish fact from fiction.
MacLysaght - the names themselves, their meaning and their origins are not in dispute.
 

Catalpast

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The O'Neill's of Shane's castle got their name by royal decree through the female line. Self styling himself 'The is a historical distortion and besides the government has abandoned acknowledging claims to head of Irish families because of the McCarthy fiasco.

Isn't Cameron's wife from one of the richest families in England?

Actually the hisyory of old Irish family names would made a great thread.
Try Leabhar Mor a nGenealach, The Great Book of Irish Genealogies,

Publication of the Great Irish Book of Genealogies | Irish Antique Dealers Association

- which was compiled by the Co. Sligo scholar Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Worth remembering also that we are a people known to prefer the comfortable fiction over the truth anyday.

It is part of our charm:)
 

Talk Back

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Worth remembering also that we are a people known to prefer the comfortable fiction over the truth anyday.

It is part of our charm:)
I take it you are referring to the lie that is the foundation myth of the Free State - and not to England's demonic rule in Ireland?
 

raetsel

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As for the two Hughs, exile for both of them and an early death for Hugh Ruadh Ó Domhnaill away from his own land. Tragic.
Off topic I know but Hugh Ruadh Ó Domhnaill died in 1602 near Valladolid, around 80 miles north of Madrid, where he is buried.

https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/press-releases/press-release-archive/2011/october/red-hugh-odonnell-honoured-in-valladoloid/

Hugh O'Neill is buried in the church of San Pietro in Montorio in Rome, along with other O'Neill and O'Donnell princes. It's in the Trastevere district and a bit out of the way. The last time I was in Rome, in 2014 I think, I tried getting there unsuccessfully by bus - they are pretty infrequent, and the church is only open for a short time every day. To cut a long story short I waited a long time under a hot sun for a bus there and eventually gave up. I may try again but I'll wait till I'm back in cooler weather. Walking in Rome on a hot day can be murder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Pietro_in_Montorio#Irish_chieftains'_tombs


 

wombat

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Mac and mc mean the same thing. All Mac's in Scotland are Irish. Scotland was Irish - that is how it got its name. The Scottish language is the Irish language. The jive talk, "Ulster Scots" is really the jive talk Ulster Scots/Irish.
This was discussed previously, western Scotland and highlands were Gaelic, lowlands and east were not.
 

Catalpast

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Off topic I know but Hugh Ruadh Ó Domhnaill died in 1602 near Valladolid, around 80 miles north of Madrid, where he is buried.

https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/press-releases/press-release-archive/2011/october/red-hugh-odonnell-honoured-in-valladoloid/

Hugh O'Neill is buried in the church of San Pietro in Montorio in Rome, along with other O'Neill and O'Donnell princes. It's in the Trastevere district and a bit out of the way. The last time I was in Rome, in 2014 I think, I tried getting there unsuccessfully by bus - they are pretty infrequent, and the church is only open for a short time every day. To cut a long story short I waited a long time under a hot sun for a bus there and eventually gave up. I may try again but I'll wait till I'm back in cooler weather. Walking in Rome on a hot day can be murder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Pietro_in_Montorio#Irish_chieftains'_tombs


I was there with the Mrs in 2003 IIRC we just walked up to it - its very scenic up there and you can see a lot of Rome

I did not realise at the time but his remains are in an ossuary under the Church* - itself a very fine early renaissance building.

We said prayers there for his Soul and the other Irish buried there and for Ireland too

The Spanish Embassy is beside it and dates from the 17th century....

* The Church was extensively damaged in the fighting there in 1849 and was rebuilt

- the ossuary was smashed and what was left was swept into a corner

Unless forensic archaeologists were to go through it all bone by bone there is now no chance of distinguishing one set of remains from another...
 

raetsel

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I was there with the Mrs in 2003 IIRC we just walked up to it - its very scenic up there and you can see a lot of Rome

I did not realise at the time but his remains are in an ossuary under the Church* - itself a very fine early renaissance building.

We said prayers there for his Soul and the other Irish buried there and for Ireland too

The Spanish Embassy is beside it and dates from the 17th century....

* The Church was extensively damaged in the fighting there in 1849 and was rebuilt

- the ossuary was smashed and what was left was swept into a corner

Unless forensic archaeologists were to go through it all bone by bone there is now no chance of distinguishing one set of remains from another...
The number 8 tram gets you to within a 10 to 15 minute walk of it as far as I remember but when I was last there the weather was really hot. At the time my Mrs was still teaching so we took our holidays in the Summer.
 


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