The Bones of O’Donnell

Nebuchadnezzar

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Hugh O’Donnell, commonly known as Red Hugh, was one of the notable figures of Ireland of the 16th century. O’Donnell, in collaboration with his father in law Hugh O’Neill, fought against english rule in the Nine Years War 1594-1603. Whilst O’Neill was the leading figure in this war O’Donnell played an important part in the establishment of the coalition of clans. Rather than being an act of rebellion by one two chieftains this war is notable in that it saw the creation and maintenance of an allied block of Irish resistance over a sustained period and the building of a military alliance with a continental supporters(the geraldines has done so before but not to the same extent).


Spanish archaeologists have been excavating the site of The Chapel of Marvels in the city of Valladolid since Monday. This is reputed to be the dead burial place of Christopher Columbus and Hugh O’Donnell. Columbus’ bones were subsequently moved to Seville. Yesterday two coffins and a skull were uncovered. DNA tests will be carried out to compare with his closest known descendants, one of which may include the Spanish military historian Hugo O’Donnell, 7th Duke of Tetuan and Tánaiste of the O’Donnell clan. Hugo O'Donnell, 7th Duke of Tetuan - Wikipedia

Foot bones may also help in determining the identity of the remains; Hugh O’Donnell lost two toes to frostbite in the Wicklow mountains following his escape from imprisonment in Dublin Castle(the only such successful escape).

image.jpg

Dig for remains of Red Hugh O’Donnell finds skull and coffins
 


Nebuchadnezzar

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Following the defeat at the Battle of Kinsale, O’Donnell departed for Spain to petition King Philip III for further support. He died in 1602, either poisoned by an English agent or else due to tapeworm. The Annals of the Four Masters gives this account of his funeral and burial...

“His body was conveyed to the king’s palace at Valladolid in a four-wheeled hearse, surrounded by countless numbers of the king’s state officers, council, and guards, with luminous torches and bright flambeaux of beautiful wax-light burning on each side of him......

He was afterwards interred in the monastery of St Francis, in the chapter precisely, with veneration and honour, and in the most solemn manner that any of the Gaels had been ever interred in before.”
 

shiel

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Hugh O’Donnell, commonly known as Red Hugh, was one of the notable figures of Ireland of the 16th century. O’Donnell, in collaboration with his father in law Hugh O’Neill, fought against english rule in the Nine Years War 1594-1603. Whilst O’Neill was the leading figure in this war O’Donnell played an important part in the establishment of the coalition of clans. Rather than being an act of rebellion by one two chieftains this war is notable in that it saw the creation and maintenance of an allied block of Irish resistance over a sustained period and the building of a military alliance with a continental supporters(the geraldines has done so before but not to the same extent).


Spanish archaeologists have been excavating the site of The Chapel of Marvels in the city of Valladolid since Monday. This is reputed to be the dead burial place of Christopher Columbus and Hugh O’Donnell. Columbus’ bones were subsequently moved to Seville. Yesterday two coffins and a skull were uncovered. DNA tests will be carried out to compare with his closest known descendants, one of which may include the Spanish military historian Hugo O’Donnell, 7th Duke of Tetuan and Tánaiste of the O’Donnell clan. Hugo O'Donnell, 7th Duke of Tetuan - Wikipedia

Foot bones may also help in determining the identity of the remains; Hugh O’Donnell lost two toes to frostbite in the Wicklow mountains following his escape from imprisonment in Dublin Castle(the only such successful escape).

View attachment 24882
Dig for remains of Red Hugh O’Donnell finds skull and coffins
Thanks for that. Very interesting about a very significant period of Irish history.

Giving the downgrading of history in the leaving many future generations will be ignorant of the past colonial history of this country.

The dire debate on Brexit at present demonstrates that tendency.

One of the interesting things about the developments that led up to the most significant defeat at Kinsale is that Grace O'Malley and her son who together had significant naval power supported the English.

If they supported O'Neill and O'Donnell Kinsale could have been relieved by sea and the land battle would not be necessary.

That would have changed Irish history for the better from an Irish point of view.

Anyway keep up the debate on O'Donnell.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Thanks for that. Very interesting about a very significant period of Irish history.

Giving the downgrading of history in the leaving many future generations will be ignorant of the past colonial history of this country.

The dire debate on Brexit at present demonstrates that tendency.

One of the interesting things about the developments that led up to the most significant defeat at Kinsale is that Grace O'Malley and her son who together had significant naval power supported the English.

If they supported O'Neill and O'Donnell Kinsale could have been relieved by sea and the land battle would not be necessary.

That would have changed Irish history for the better from an Irish point of view.

Anyway keep up the debate on O'Donnell.
There was an interesting discussion on the ‘Child Slaves’ thread about O’Malley‘s galleys. I don’t think her forces would have been able to directly take on the blockading English fleet. These ships were formidable vessels, for example Warspite the flagship of English naval commander Sir John Leveson, displaced about 600 tons, crew of 300, with 32 large guns. In contrast O’Malleys oared galleys weighed perhaps about 30 tons and were probably only armed with hand held weapons. Here’s an account of an encounter between one of her galleys and an English ship in 1601....

“Not withstanding she rowed with thirty oars and had on board ready to defend her a hundred good shots which entertained a skirmish with my boat for most of an hour and had put her to the worst. Coming up with my ship to the rescue, I quickly, with my great shot made an end to the fray. This galley comes out of Connaught and belongs to Grany O’Malley whereof a base son of hers is captain”.
 
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shiel

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There was an interesting discussion on the ‘Child Slaves’ thread about O’Malley‘s galleys. I don’t think her forces would have been able to directly take on the blockading English fleet. These ships were formidable vessels, for example Warspite the flagship of English naval commander Sir John Leveson, displaced about 600 tons, crew of 300, with 32 large guns. In contrast O’Malleys oared galleys weighed perhaps about 30 tons and were probably only armed with hand held weapons. Here’s an account of an encounter between one of her galleys and an English ship in 1601....

“Not withstanding she rowed with thirty oars and had on board ready to defend her a hundred good shots which entertained a skirmish with my boat for most of an hour and had put her to the worst. Coming up with my ship to the rescue, I quickly, with my great shot made an end to the fray. This galley comes out of Connaught and belongs to Grany O’Malley whereof a base son of hers is captain”.
OK.

So Grace O'Malley and her son were small fry really even though she got an audience with queen Elizabeth 1 at some stage.

She seems to have kept in with the English to ensure her survival I assume.
 

redneck

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This period of history is facinating. It was the beginning of the end of Gaelic culture in Ireland. The discovery of the "New World" was an epoch shaping event. It brought in a new world order. The English discovered the vast North American continent. And proceeded to settle it. At the same time as they began to conquer Ireland.
Is é mo thuairm go raibh an stair seo an tábhactacht.
The victory of the Protestant King Billy at the Battle of the Boyne finished off Gaelic Ireland imho.
Tá brón orm.
 

wombat

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Bit of a nit to pick with RTEs coverage tonight - they described O'Donnell as an Irish rebel which he wasn't. It was only after the Flight of the Earls that the Gaelic system was finally conquered by the English so there was nothing for him to rebel against.;)
 

shiel

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The Treaty of Limerick was signed after the Williamite war in 1691.

It guaranteed tolerance for all concerned.

But the English tore it up before the ink was dry.

They imposed the penal laws depriving the Irish of all rights.

The penal laws lasted until Emancipation in 1829.

Shades of Brexiteers tearing up the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement in the present day.

Hope the consequences of Brexit do not last as long as the penal laws.
 

raetsel

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Bit of a nit to pick with RTEs coverage tonight - they described O'Donnell as an Irish rebel which he wasn't. It was only after the Flight of the Earls that the Gaelic system was finally conquered by the English so there was nothing for him to rebel against.;)
The were also misleading in the opening sequence, where they claimed that the archeologists "believed" that they had found his remains. This is not the case. They believe they have found his burial chamber, but there are numerous others also interred there as well, and in fact they have specifically said that they haven't yet found his remains.
 

Dearghoul

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Certainly wasn't Columbus, as he'd been moved.

As far as O Donnell was concerned, his rashness cost the probability of success at Kinsale.
He wasn't inclined to listen to his elders and betters and an obscure death in Spain was his just portion.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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OK.

So Grace O'Malley and her son were small fry really even though she got an audience with queen Elizabeth 1 at some stage.

She seems to have kept in with the English to ensure her survival I assume.
Her ‘navy’ could have been very useful in keeping O’Donnell‘s home base secure. Sir Henry Dowcra and Niall Garve O’Donnell(Red Hugh’s cousin and rival) were active in Inishowen and elsewhere in Donegal fighting against the Irish confederation.

O’Donnell is probably at fault for alienating Grace and other north Connaught clans from their cause. Following his early success in seizing Sligo he established dominance for a time in north Mayo. He seems to have particularly upset the Bourkes(Grace‘s 2nd husband Richard “The Devils Hook” was the Bourke clan chief). He revived the title and position of The MacWilliam but he imposed his own choice above all other claimants. Grace‘s son may have been one of thone disenfranchised by O’Donnell.
 

Dearghoul

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The Treaty of Limerick was signed after the Williamite war in 1691.

It guaranteed tolerance for all concerned.

But the English tore it up before the ink was dry.

They imposed the penal laws depriving the Irish of all rights.

The penal laws lasted until Emancipation in 1829.

Shades of Brexiteers tearing up the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement in the present day.

Hope the consequences of Brexit do not last as long as the penal laws.
Now, now, they didn't tear up anything.

There were two parts to the Treaty.

The Articles military were adhered to in every detail, and the civil matters were overruled by the Dublin Parliament. This wasn't a failure of the military in this regard except in the matter of overreach.

This is all a bit off topic.
 
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Nebuchadnezzar

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These Spanish O’Donnells of today, Hugo O’Donnell, 7th Duke of Tetuan and Tánaiste of the O’Donnell clan......

....an ancestor and fellow descendant of Red Hugh was Leopoldo O’Donnell, 1st Duke of Tetuan. He was a senior Officer in the Spanish Army, responsible for a massacre of black prisoners in Cuba, commander of the spanish forces at the Battle of Tetuan during the Spanish Moroccan War, and briefly Prime Minister of Spain in 1856.

Leopoldo O'Donnell, 1st Duke of Tetuán - Wikipedia
 

McTell

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It's often forgotten that under our former culture you had to be physically perfect to serve as a chief, and once he lost his toes o'donnell had no real authority any more.

That's why we remember the story about the toes. The soft-as-shite modern historian living in comfort in the burbs thinks "Jaze, I wouldn't like to lose my toes", but the physical pain was irrelevant, it was the loss of power that was everything.

That's why the o'donnells weren't up to much after that. The string of o'donnell clan victories ends about there, doesn't it?

Of course o'neill kept him going, as his son in law, and the spanish were polite, wanting him to make a nuisance of himself, but in the big scheme of things his type had nothing to offer us.

Spain had gone bankrupt in 1598 so the answer was always going to be no, but they threw in a half dacent martyr's funeral to keep us on side.

Then the big peace treaty in 1604, as the war had been so bad for business. Most of the 1500s the spanish and english did a lot of trading and your armadas and kinsales were the exception, not the rule.
 

Dearghoul

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Bit of a nit to pick with RTEs coverage tonight - they described O'Donnell as an Irish rebel which he wasn't. It was only after the Flight of the Earls that the Gaelic system was finally conquered by the English so there was nothing for him to rebel against.;)
Not sure about that Wombat.

From the earliest attempts at conquest and colonisation which predated the Elizabethan settlements rebellion or acquisance had been the only available options.
 

Dearghoul

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It's often forgotten that under our former culture you had to be physically perfect to serve as a chief, and once he lost his toes o'donnell had no real authority any more.

That's why we remember the story about the toes. The soft-as-shite modern historian living in comfort in the burbs thinks "Jaze, I wouldn't like to lose my toes", but the physical pain was irrelevant, it was the loss of power that was everything.

That's why the o'donnells weren't up to much after that. The string of o'donnell clan victories ends about there, doesn't it?

Of course o'neill kept him going, as his son in law, and the spanish were polite, wanting him to make a nuisance of himself, but in the big scheme of things his type had nothing to offer us.

Spain had gone bankrupt in 1598 so the answer was always going to be no, but they threw in a half dacent martyr's funeral to keep us on side.

Then the big peace treaty in 1604, as the war had been so bad for business. Most of the 1500s the spanish and english did a lot of trading and your armadas and kinsales were the exception, not the rule.
Shame that the wiser man didn't remind him of this when they had the English double encircled at Kinsale.

When you think what his and O Neill's crew went through to have the whole thing messed up by a hothead...
 
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Nebuchadnezzar

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It's often forgotten that under our former culture you had to be physically perfect to serve as a chief, and once he lost his toes o'donnell had no real authority any more.

That's why we remember the story about the toes. The soft-as-shite modern historian living in comfort in the burbs thinks "Jaze, I wouldn't like to lose my toes", but the physical pain was irrelevant, it was the loss of power that was everything.

That's why the o'donnells weren't up to much after that. The string of o'donnell clan victories ends about there, doesn't it?

Of course o'neill kept him going, as his son in law, and the spanish were polite, wanting him to make a nuisance of himself, but in the big scheme of things his type had nothing to offer us.

Spain had gone bankrupt in 1598 so the answer was always going to be no, but they threw in a half dacent martyr's funeral to keep us on side.

Then the big peace treaty in 1604, as the war had been so bad for business. Most of the 1500s the spanish and english did a lot of trading and your armadas and kinsales were the exception, not the rule.
I think eyes were essential for chieftainship, hence there were so many blindings, ....but toes? I doubt anyone thought less of him for the loss of his big toes.

As for the end of O’Donnell victories coinciding with the loss of his toes 1593.... Red Hugh had several notable victories in the years thereafter, the Battle of Ballyshannon, the capture of Sligo. He also played an important part in Hugh O’Neill’s most notable victory The Battle of the Yellow Ford in 1598.
 

raetsel

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This is reputed to be the dead burial place of Christopher Columbus and Hugh O’Donnell. Columbus’ bones were subsequently moved to Seville.
Columbus's corpse was nearly as well travelled in death as he was in life. :)
For some obscure reason that I cannot remember, his remains were taken to Hispaniola, which he had discovered of course, where they rested for a while, before being taken back across the Atlantic and re-interred in Seville. His sarcophagus there is suspended about 8/9 feet above ground level and is quite elaborate. (There is of course some doubt about the identity of the remains in Seville as it happens, and some in Valladolid claim that he remained in the city and someone else's remains, perhaps those of his brother, were sent to Hispaniola.)
Seville as a city is well worth a visit.

gIMG_6049.jpg
 

Dearghoul

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Hugh O’Donnell, commonly known as Red Hugh, was one of the notable figures of Ireland of the 16th century. O’Donnell, in collaboration with his father in law Hugh O’Neill, fought against english rule in the Nine Years War 1594-1603. Whilst O’Neill was the leading figure in this war O’Donnell played an important part in the establishment of the coalition of clans. Rather than being an act of rebellion by one two chieftains this war is notable in that it saw the creation and maintenance of an allied block of Irish resistance over a sustained period and the building of a military alliance with a continental supporters(the geraldines has done so before but not to the same extent).


Spanish archaeologists have been excavating the site of The Chapel of Marvels in the city of Valladolid since Monday. This is reputed to be the dead burial place of Christopher Columbus and Hugh O’Donnell. Columbus’ bones were subsequently moved to Seville. Yesterday two coffins and a skull were uncovered. DNA tests will be carried out to compare with his closest known descendants, one of which may include the Spanish military historian Hugo O’Donnell, 7th Duke of Tetuan and Tánaiste of the O’Donnell clan. Hugo O'Donnell, 7th Duke of Tetuan - Wikipedia

Foot bones may also help in determining the identity of the remains; Hugh O’Donnell lost two toes to frostbite in the Wicklow mountains following his escape from imprisonment in Dublin Castle(the only such successful escape).

View attachment 24882
Dig for remains of Red Hugh O’Donnell finds skull and coffins
I've gotta say, that like him or not like him as a military tactician, I am wondering if digging him up is going to add anything to the mix.

Is digging peoples stuff out of the ground what we're doing for fun these days?

On these bones in particular, and many besides, is this where we've come to?



To dig them out means that we regard them as something completely 'other' and that we're not going to share the same fate. Some of the ice age and bog burials , sure I get it, but for anything more recent, could we not just leave the sod lie lightly on them?
 


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