The Case Against Frances Black’s Boycott Bill.

roc_

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... As for the newfound concern for Palestinians working for the settlements...
It's not "new-found". - The essential difference between us Dame Enda is in our ideas as to what is at the root of the Palestinian's suffering, not that we want to kill them all or something... Most Zionists' viewpoint and perspective would be entirely along these lines, which in fact puts concern for the Palestinians foremost - A shattered Palestinian society: Interview with Bassem Eid | The Blogs
 


former wesleyan

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Took a couple of days, but the orders are in. Plan A.call the irish nazis.
The Irish have been calling Protestants and Jews nazis for some time now. The problem with comparing a big bad thing with a smaller bad thing is that it tends to diminish the big bad thing, which may or may not be the intention.
 

Socratus O' Pericles

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I never said 100 %.

I find Israeli foreign policy unreasonable.

All religions are a blight. Toxic and divisive.
 

yanshuf

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I make a conscious choice in my shopping to not buy from countries engaged in settler colonialism.

As for the newfound concern for Palestinians working for the settlements, I would compare it to Mercantilism by the colonial powers in places like the sugar or rubber plantations during British/French/Dutch rule in the Caribean and Indonesia. There were no doubt natives working on those too because that was the exploitative economic framework devised by the colonial powers. Ruling other nations against their will is an abomination.
1. You don't make a support of boycotting any other country a big dead like the one against Israel.

2. If you're not worried about Palestinian employment, why should I?
 

yanshuf

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The Irish gave refuge to nazi war criminals, the Irish still have monuments of Irish nazis, the Irish have endorsed the BLO and Hamas, and their fight against Israel.

I would say that the Irish should concentrate on their own business, but it seems that it wouldn't be appropriate for the Irish leftistics who want Israel destroyed, either by war or by boycotts.

So, essentially, we're now waiting for a long overdue response from Israel's government to a new, but in line with the past, black bill that continues the antisemitic and hypocrisy that have always tainted Ireland.
 

Dame_Enda

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The Irish gave refuge to nazi war criminals, the Irish still have monuments of Irish nazis, the Irish have endorsed the BLO and Hamas, and their fight against Israel.

I would say that the Irish should concentrate on their own business, but it seems that it wouldn't be appropriate for the Irish leftistics who want Israel destroyed, either by war or by boycotts.

So, essentially, we're now waiting for a long overdue response from Israel's government to a new, but in line with the past, black bill that continues the antisemitic and hypocrisy that have always tainted the Ireland.
The US employed 1000 ex Nazis which underlines the difference between ones position on Israel and ones position on anti semitism.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/27/us/in-cold-war-us-spy-agencies-used-1000-nazis.html
 

Clanrickard

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First of all as Frances Black said on "The Week in Politics", this is not BDS. This only applies to the settlements, not to Israels 1967 borders.

If this was the 17th century I would support a boycott movement against the Plantation of Ulster.

Where are these borders? No final agreement has ever been reached on where the border actually is.
 

yanshuf

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And still waiting to see how Zhabotinsky was a hitler supporter!!!

Meanwhile let's remember the man from the OP, amin el-husseini, under whose picture McDonncha was sitting to hear and support the notion that Jews have no connection to the Temple Mount.

Amin el-husseini was a nazi, what a surprise, and McDonncha was sitting in the right conference, where he felt at home.

He's the epitome of irish leftistic antisemitism. Disgusted (not from his mishaped head, but from his mishaped soul).
 

yanshuf

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ruman

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I doubt Germany or the U.S. will follow the lead of the Irish Seanad - don't blame me, I voted to abolish the trough.
McDowell led the move against abolishing it, now profiting nicely of course. Doesnt seem to attend it much other then to block reform of the legal profession. The vested interest groups man in the Seanad.
 

Clanrickard

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So, essentially, we're now waiting for a long overdue response from Israel's government to a new, but in line with the past, black bill that continues the antisemitic and hypocrisy that have always tainted Ireland.
There is very little Antisemitism in Ireland.
 

Round tower

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The problem is if it becomes law is if Isreil decides to ban certain exports from Ireland.
 

Mercurial

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Do you see the picture of the Arab leader circled in the photo below, taken when Dublin's lord Mayor (also circled) attended the conference in Ramallah recently?



It is the figure who inspires the Palestinian so called "resistance" movement, Arafat's uncle, the notorious Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin Husseini.

Now, I want people to focus on something this leader said a few weeks before his death in 2001. He said:

"... One must draw a distinction between the strategic aspirations of the Palestinian people, who would not surrender one grain of Palestinian soil, and their political striving, based on the balance of power and the nature of the current international system … Our eyes will continue to be focused on the strategic goal — a Palestine from the River to the Sea — and nothing that we take today can make us forget this supreme truth..."

So, the question I have is - does the Palestinian "resistance" movement, encompassing the boycott movement as well as the terrorist organisations on the ground, and their sponsors in the middle east and Europe, actually perceive their "political striving" in the above terms?

Ok, people on here may be familiar with my own critical views on the boycott movement, spearheaded today by BDS. - I look highly critically to such statements made by BDS as "... What we want is not actual economic divestment from Israel. Everyone knows that the U.S. will never pull investments out of Israel like that. Instead, we are looking to shift the dialogue to whether or not to divest from Israel, without extraneous discussion of the basics. We hope that in 10, 20 years the public will just take for granted the premises that Israel is an Apartheid state, and then we can move from there...”

Also, it is very clear to me that BDS have a long-term vision of Israel's elimination. - Norman Finkelstein puts this very succinctly in this interview - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggdO7C70P8

You know, everything I have seen coming from this boycott movement (example) corroborates the opinion that BDS seek to indoctrinate and imbue people with an abiding hatred of Israel and its people, so as to fortify them for attacks on Israel and her people by Hamas, Hizbollah, the PA, and other terrorist entities.

That worries me as an Irishman.

Note that what the Mufti said in the quote above merely corroborates the official stated PLO strategy that " ... [we] should seize whatever territory Israel is prepared or compelled to cede to them and use it as a springboard for further territorial gains until achieving the "complete liberation of Palestine..." (Source).

People on here may protest that that document is from 1974. But is not the Mufti corroborating it above in 2001? And Arafat in 1993 also corroborated it saying in Arabic to his own people, right during the signing of the Oslo accord:

"... Do not forget that our Palestine National Council accepted the decision in 1974. It called for the establishment of a national authority on any part of Palestinian land that is liberated or from which the Israelis withdrew. This is the fruit of your struggle, your sacrifices, and your jihad … This is the moment of return, the moment of gaining a foothold on the first liberated Palestinian land … Long live Palestine, liberated and Arab..." (Source)

Now, in highlighting the above, my intention is not to be overly partisan. - It is to question the assumptions that are apparently held by our representatives who are pushing this bill through. - What if they are wrong assumptions, and we are unwittingly helping to reinforce a strategy which can only lead to more war and suffering?

Do we need some serious perspective here? For example, that Israeli settlements cover only about 2% of the area of the West Bank. Or that 80 percent of the recent expansion has been in the existing settlement blocs everyone knows Israel would retain in any conceivable peace agreement. Or that many settlements in the West Bank like Gush Etzion and Hebron have had Jewish communities sometimes for thousands of years.

(I made a thread on here questioning the assumption that the settlements were central to this conflict, before).

Why does none of the above never enter any of the debate? Why does the fact of all of these discussion points never, ever entering the debate actually receive a bloody standing ovation?

Having read the OP I am none the wiser as to what your objection to the proposed legislation actually is.
 

roc_

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Having read the OP I am none the wiser as to what your objection to the proposed legislation actually is.
You're so glib.

Our senators' 'debate' underlying the legislation rested on wildly erroneous assumptions, absence of facts, and pre-existing prejudice.

The commentary that "Palestinians are innocent, Israelis evil” is morally bankrupt.

These senators dismissed the question of why are the Israelis building settlements in area C of the West Bank, in a manner of group-think, coming to the tacit but observable conclusion that it is because the Israelis want to "steal more land" as the slogan has it.

They apparently conceive of the occupation as nothing more than an Israeli desire to inflict harm on another people, as if Israel were not governed by a moral code deeply embedded in its DNA.

Their ignorance of the conflict is astounding.

Personally, I can observe the assumptions and reasoning that underlie this group-think in these people. My hope is that my OP sets out some of the realities that relate to the strategy of the Palestinian leadership, that bear on the debate they ought to have had, and that throws a spanner into the workings of their unworthy group-think and associated thought processes.

To summarise, the objectionable-ness of the legislation is related to the manner in which it is being conceived. I am truly flabbergasted how a senate can approve legislation like this without looking to such facts as I set out in the OP.

These chancers bring the tradition of the senate as a place where important topics are discussed by the intellectual elite of a society, disregarding interest, and extolling worthy opinion, deep into the gutter.

But it's not only our senate. The whole process is raising spectres of the 1933 boycott against German Jews to my mind.

Does that make things clearer for you?
 

roc_

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There is very little Antisemitism in Ireland.
I personally perceive there are significant currents under the surface. You really get a glimpse of them in such instances as this Irish website here - https://www.******************/ - No doubt that website is one extreme end of the spectrum. - But there is quite a spectrum there. For example, you also get a good glimpse of it at such 'protests' on our streets as the following (note the Hizbollah flag):



Then, you get the institutionalisation of it, that becomes a part of the fabric of our society. E.g.


(https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Another-Tack-That-unwitting-indecency)

There are a lot of reactions you can see in Irish society that are not comprehensible if you assume even a modicum of intelligence, which I know we Irish have, without acknowledgement of these currents. What just happened in the senate is a very good example, in my opinion.
 


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