The DUP leadership; is there a method in their madness?

GDPR

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I'm a sure there is a proportion, I'm not sure how sizable it is and don't want to get into that debate here, of the CNR community who are fine with remaining in the UK for the sake of a quiet life. However I doubt that they are fine with the tribal aggression of a significant degree of Political Unionism. I don't believe that a CNR voting majority will necessarily bring about a united Ireland (though it would significantly increase the chances of that happening). It will though give the CNR community in Northern Ireland the whip hand so to speak. So disregarding universal standards of Justice for a moment why in the current situation are carrying on as they are? Now one of the reasons as to why Protestantism has negative cultural effects is that it has a tendency to negate people's sense of historical time coming from it's cult of the Primitive Church, that however explains the PUL mob but I don't think it explains the leadership. If you discount my beliefs about what the Orange Order are up to how do you explain the stupidity of the DUP, TUV and UUP?
 


hollandia

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I'm a sure there is a proportion, I'm not sure how sizable it is and don't want to get into that debate here, of the CNR community who are fine with remaining in the UK for the sake of a quiet life. However I doubt that they are fine with the tribal aggression of a significant degree of Political Unionism. I don't believe that a CNR voting majority will necessarily bring about a united Ireland (though it would significantly increase the chances of that happening). It will though give the CNR community in Northern Ireland the whip hand so to speak. So disregarding universal standards of Justice for a moment why in the current situation are carrying on as they are? Now one of the reasons as to why Protestantism has negative cultural effects is that it has a tendency to negate people's sense of historical time coming from it's cult of the Primitive Church, that however explains the PUL mob but I don't think it explains the leadership. If you discount my beliefs about what the Orange Order are up to how do you explain the stupidity of the DUP, TUV and UUP?
No. They can't help themselves. They are (mostly) incapable of humility or relinquishing a sense of entitlement.
 

vivabrigada

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I'm a sure there is a proportion, I'm not sure how sizable it is and don't want to get into that debate here, of the CNR community who are fine with remaining in the UK for the sake of a quiet life. However I doubt that they are fine with the tribal aggression of a significant degree of Political Unionism. I don't believe that a CNR voting majority will necessarily bring about a united Ireland (though it would significantly increase the chances of that happening). It will though give the CNR community in Northern Ireland the whip hand so to speak. So disregarding universal standards of Justice for a moment why in the current situation are carrying on as they are? Now one of the reasons as to why Protestantism has negative cultural effects is that it has a tendency to negate people's sense of historical time coming from it's cult of the Primitive Church, that however explains the PUL mob but I don't think it explains the leadership. If you discount my beliefs about what the Orange Order are up to how do you explain the stupidity of the DUP, TUV and UUP?
In short, siege mentality.
 

Hunter-Gatherer

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i love all the talk of ''the protestant work ethic'' and them taking credit for industrialisation and prosperity. That was then. Today they are all on the dole for life and proud of it.
 

Levellers

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They find it hard to let go of the apartheid system they so lovingly created.
 

GDPR

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In short, siege mentality.
No that doesn't explain it- their behaviour which is potentially tribally suicidal is more evidence of triumphalist arrogance than fear. They aren't ghetto fleggers living near "Peace Walls" also. A united Ireland who mean a dented pride for a large amount of the PUL community but that is not the same as an existential threat now is it? Also I'm the OP was addressing the leadership and not their mob and flying monkeys.
 

vivabrigada

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No that doesn't explain it- their behaviour which is potentially tribally suicidal is more evidence of triumphalist arrogance than fear. They aren't ghetto fleggers living near "Peace Walls" also. A united Ireland who mean a dented pride for a large amount of the PUL community but that is not the same as an existential threat now is it? Also I'm the OP was addressing the leadership and not their mob and flying monkeys.
The leadership are relying on the flying monkeys. Fridays TalkBack was a prime example. Fishwives wailing that they will be forced to speak in Irish.
Unionism has had it's arrogant swagger clipped by Nationalists and Republicans. All they have left is scare tactics.
Triumphalism is a lame duck in the North.
 

McSlaggart

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If you discount my beliefs about what the Orange Order are up to how do you explain the stupidity of the DUP, TUV and UUP?
Its natural for individuals and groups in society to cling to false beliefs even though facts do not support them. In order for Unionism to proceed it needs fear of the other firstly it was Catholics, then Republicans and now they are somewhat lost.

The current false fact that Unionism is spouting is that SF did not try and make Northern Ireland work. The people who have been doing the destroying is ironically Unionists for example Twaddel and their irrational protests.
 

GDPR

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The leadership are relying on the flying monkeys. Fridays TalkBack was a prime example. Fishwives wailing that they will be forced to speak in Irish.
Unionism has had it's arrogant swagger clipped by Nationalists and Republicans. All they have left is sare tactics.
Triumphalism is a lame duck in the North.
I'm in favour of compulsory Irish in all Northern Ireland schools but that is neither here nor there as regards this thread- Sinn Fein aren't nor are the SDLP.

I know that the DUP have been deliberately going around telling people that if they don't vote for them in this election they will end up being forced to speak Irish. They are out to make "their" mob worse than they already are- in terms of the medium term that makes absolutely no sense. However maybe you are right and all they have in their minds is short term greed but that would make them utter sociopaths.
 

GDPR

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Its natural for individuals and groups in society to cling to false beliefs even though facts do not support them. In order for Unionism to proceed it needs fear of the other firstly it was Catholics, then Republicans and now they are somewhat lost.

The current false fact that Unionism is spouting is that SF did not try and make Northern Ireland work. The people who have been doing the destroying is ironically Unionists for example Twaddel and their irrational protests.
Sinn Fein did more that could have been expected to make the GFA work- credit where credit is due.

I wasn't talking about the DUP's commitment to keeping NI in the UK- that is one thing. Feeding tribal tensions rather than trying to ease them is a different matter which oddly enough doesn't exactly help NI's future position in the UK now does it?
 

McSlaggart

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I wasn't talking about the DUP's commitment to keeping NI in the UK- that is one thing. Feeding tribal tensions rather than trying to ease them is a different matter which oddly enough doesn't exactly help NI's future position in the UK now does it?
The DUP is full of Bigots and this hinders their political ability to adjust to the new situation in which they find themselves. SF have a political plan and part of it means doing their best to work with Unionism.

I would expect the sdlp to be more extreme on a lot of issues dear to unionists if they get back into the joint office.
 

GDPR

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The DUP is full of Bigots and this hinders their political ability to adjust to the new situation in which they find themselves. SF have a political plan and part of it means doing their best to work with Unionism.

I would expect the sdlp to be more extreme on a lot of issues dear to unionists if they get back into the joint office.
There has been though a massive degeneration in their public bigotry since they chucked out Paisley and Robinson took over and that has accelerated under Arlene Foster and all the while demographics keep on going against the possibility of them ever achieving the Northern Ireland of their dreams.

"Better to bend than break".

"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

In my experience you get your own way much more often by being nice as opposed to nasty.
 

InsideImDancing

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Ratio you are from that community, maybe you can tell us? Why do people vote for political Unionism in such huge numbers? That will tell you why their leadership act how they do.

I mean how the fook do they get away with some of the absolute garbage they come out with? And I don't care about bridgey et al coming on here crying about "themuns" to me, because political Unionism comes out with some absolute nonsense that simply does not exist in Nationalism. And I often wonder, mainly out of pure curiosity, what the fook is different in their communities that makes them vote for some of the loopier stuff that we see, anti-gay marriage, immigration, extreme flegging (nationalism) and such? Amongst other stuff, I mean a lot of prominent Unionist politicos come across as complete fook'n mongoloids and in my experience normal Unionists simply are not like that, and that is me being honest.

I can only imagine it is a massive hatred of SF and the IRA and what went down, but that doesn't really explain their utterly despicable attitudes prior to the troubles.
 

InsideImDancing

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There has been though a massive degeneration in their public bigotry since they chucked out Paisley and Robinson took over and that has accelerated under Arlene Foster and all the while demographics keep on going against the possibility of them ever achieving the Northern Ireland of their dreams.

"Better to bend than break".

"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

In my experience you get your own way much more often by being nice as opposed to nasty.
In retrospect, Arlene is not even on the same planet as Paisley and Pizza were in terms of nous and general leadership ability.

And as for being nasty rather than nice, it seems to work for Unionism, at least up to this point.
 

GDPR

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Ratio you are from that community, maybe you can tell us? Why do people vote for political Unionism in such huge numbers? That will tell you why their leadership act how they do. .
Yeah but I'm from a crappy council estate and was never near to be being politically powerful in Political Unionism.

The thread isn't about the mob or the flying monkeys, they are another day's work, I'm talking about the people on the thrones and those with power behind them. They obviously are another breed to your average flegger, etc.

My belief is that the Orange Order want to steer Northern Ireland back into another Troubles because they believe that through that they can re-exert their power. Both the Tan War/War of Independence and the Troubles could have been easily avoided but the OO made sure the most ugly outcome was achieved.

I would like to hear other explanations. Also so far no one said that the DUP leadership is acting rationally.
 

GDPR

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And as for being nasty rather than nice, it seems to work for Unionism, at least up to this point.
Has it really? The fact that we still spend so much energy arguing about the border and it remains the central dividing line in Northern Irish politics says otherwise as does the fact that the Troubles did massive damage to NI's already damaged economy. Than there is the fact that the nastiness constantly generated by certain people drives a lot of bright young people away from Ulster which again is not good for the economy or the society.
 

InsideImDancing

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Yeah but I'm from a crappy council estate and was near to be being politically powerful in Political Unionism.

The thread isn't about the mob or the flying monkeys, they are another day's work, I'm talking about the people on the thrones and those with power behind them. They obviously are another breed to your average flegger, etc.

My belief is that the Orange Order want to steer Northern Ireland back into another Troubles because they believe that through that they can re-exert their power. Both the Tan War/War of Independence and the Troubles could have been easily avoided but the OO made sure the most ugly outcome was achieved.

I would like to hear other explanations. Also so far no one said that the DUP leadership is acting rationally.
Maybe they just can't help themselves, but surely the answer to the actions of the leadership lies in the people who vote for them? What do they say around the doors? What do they talk about in their communities?

Personally I think the DUP could have done serious damage to Irish Nationalism by just, at least appearing to be, more fek'n reasonable. But maybe that would allow a UI to sneak in the back door in the long run. Maybe they realise that reconciliation in the north can only really lead to one place, a UI.
 

GDPR

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Maybe they just can't help themselves, but surely the answer to the actions of the leadership lies in the people who vote for them? What do they say around the doors? What do they talk about in their communities?

Personally I think the DUP could have done serious damage to Irish Nationalism by just, at least appearing to be, more fek'n reasonable. But maybe that would allow a UI to sneak in the back door in the long run. Maybe they realise that reconciliation in the north can only really lead to one place, a UI.
Maybe but keeping tribal tensions boiling is much more likely to lead to one in the medium term. Also there is very little chance of the ROI actually oppressing Prods no mind shoving us in Gas Chambers or whatever in a united Ireland so sorting out NI's dysfunctions particularly when themuns will soon have the whip hand should rationally come first in their considerations.

No leadership lies with leadership. Most people are followers and that is just human nature. Remember also that during his last years Big Ian was leading Unionism in a healthy or at least considerably healthier direction.
 

InsideImDancing

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Has it really? The fact that we still spend so much energy arguing about the border and it remains the central dividing line in Northern Irish politics says otherwise as does the fact that the Troubles did massive damage to NI's already damaged economy. Than there is the fact that the nastiness constantly generated by certain people drives a lot of bright young people away from Ulster which again is not good for the economy or the society.
I agree with you there, it defo turns some protestants away from them. But look at the polls and election results, it is working for them now, but might kill them in the future.

It is clear many Catholics don't want a UI right now for the precise reason that, as you say, they want a quiet life. The last thing they want is another huge conflict. So they think a UI is just not worth it right now. This is down to Unionism's intransigent nature, so in that regard, it is working, but I reckon only in the short term.

The thing about political Unionism is this, SF utterly own them, all they have to do is raise tensions as and when they want. Just take a fleg down here or there and boom Unionism is off doing damage to itself. Raise such tensions enough, and Unionism will react so badly, and so predictably, that it would motivate Nationalists to storm down the polling booths to hand out serious damage. And also utterly put the Brits off them.

The idea that the DUP are running rings around SF is absolutely hilarious stuff.
 

InsideImDancing

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Maybe but keeping tribal tensions boiling is much more likely to lead to one in the medium term. Also there is very little chance of the ROI actually oppressing Prods no mind shoving us in Gas Chambers or whatever in a united Ireland so sorting out NI's dysfunctions particularly when themuns will soon have the whip hand should rationally come first in their considerations.

No leadership lies with leadership. Most people are followers and that is just human nature. Remember also that during his last years Big Ian was leading Unionism in a healthy or at least considerably healthier direction.
But they don't give a hoot about Nationalism having the whip hand, they are brave in that regard, and I don't blame them. I wouldn't want to have to fight them. :)

In their minds it is just about stopping a UI, and a reconciled NI can ONLY lead to a UI in the long term. The only reason the country is partitioned is because of the deliberate policies of division implemented by the Brits and by Unionism over the years. Disunity of the people in this country is the result of carefully laid plans, that much is an absolute fact. If that stops then a UI is inevitable.

Therefore Unionism is in the division game, like they have always been. In fact it is the exact reason they were sent here centuries ago.
 


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