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The establishment's insidious attacks on the institution of parliamentary democratic opposition.

ShinnerBot No.32564844524

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Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Messages
4,142
Seriously folks, somethings should be so straightforward and basic, you'd be a bit numb skulled not to see it, in this case it's the fact that Democracy would be about as useful as tits on a bull without an opposition. The same as a court without a defense is a sham.

Yet in Ireland, day in, day out, we seem to think that having the media and the 88 year parties of the duopoly FF/FG repeatedly state that there is no merit in being in opposition, and get away with it. In fact, it seems that this talking point is so readily accepted in Ireland not even the smaller parties being maligned seemed to have copped that they shouldn't be taking this lying down.

The mantra goes that those not kissing FF/FG's arse are not interested in the challenge of going in to government, but what about the right of the voters to appoint alternative parties and independents who they believe will deliver better accountability and oversight? Isn't this what democracy is about, freedom of choice and the expectation that there will be democratic representatives present to do the important work of opposition as well as those who choose government.

The fact of the matter is that there is more at play, it's now more a case of FF/FG having a whinge that they can't take turns controlling the dail anymore, and nowhere more is this in evidence than their failure to have a go at Labour alongside the others.

I'll say it again and again and again, this isn't about who goes in to government, it's about keeping some semblance of control by the 88 year order.

Thankfully, things won't be that easy, this country since the last term is finally starting to see the value of an opposition that fulfills its democratic function.
 


drummed

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Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
37,442
Yeah, well in theory. But its a bit more subtle really. Our system has little use for actual opposition as the whip system means they have little to no influence. Yes, they exist and get to talk a lot but that's really about it. We don't have a real parliamentary system as in the UK. We have an executive system we call a parliament.

Strictly speaking we don't have a democracy either. We have a Republican system with an element of democracy. You cant actually have a republican democracy in a strict sense. But that's a different debate.

Its the system stupid! Sorry, you know what I mean.
 

drummed

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
37,442
People rarely actually understand our rather unique political system. Its nothing like the more representative version in the UK where parliament is a big deal. Here, is mostly a hot air and grandstanding forum for windbags. You may impress the peasants with lofty speeches but you have zero chance of actually getting anything done.

It needs changing. But you know.........men of 1916 would be turning in their graves or something.
 

Hibee

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Joined
Dec 15, 2015
Messages
1,910
Seriously folks, somethings should be so straightforward and basic, you'd be a bit numb skulled not to see it, in this case it's the fact that Democracy would be about as useful as tits on a bull without an opposition. The same as a court without a defense is a sham.

Yet in Ireland, day in, day out, we seem to think that having the media and the 88 year parties of the duopoly FF/FG repeatedly state that there is no merit in being in opposition, and get away with it. In fact, it seems that this talking point is so readily accepted in Ireland not even the smaller parties being maligned seemed to have copped that they shouldn't be taking this lying down.

The mantra goes that those not kissing FF/FG's arse are not interested in the challenge of going in to government, but what about the right of the voters to appoint alternative parties and independents who they believe will deliver better accountability and oversight? Isn't this what democracy is about, freedom of choice and the expectation that there will be democratic representatives present to do the important work of opposition as well as those who choose government.

The fact of the matter is that there is more at play, it's now more a case of FF/FG having a whinge that they can't take turns controlling the dail anymore, and nowhere more is this in evidence than their failure to have a go at Labour alongside the others.

I'll say it again and again and again, this isn't about who goes in to government, it's about keeping some semblance of control by the 88 year order.

Thankfully, things won't be that easy, this country since the last term is finally starting to see the value of an opposition that fulfills its democratic function.
Btw who told you to post this ????
 

venusian

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2011
Messages
6,936
Seriously folks, somethings should be so straightforward and basic, you'd be a bit numb skulled not to see it, in this case it's the fact that Democracy would be about as useful as tits on a bull without an opposition. The same as a court without a defense is a sham.

Yet in Ireland, day in, day out, we seem to think that having the media and the 88 year parties of the duopoly FF/FG repeatedly state that there is no merit in being in opposition, and get away with it. In fact, it seems that this talking point is so readily accepted in Ireland not even the smaller parties being maligned seemed to have copped that they shouldn't be taking this lying down.

The mantra goes that those not kissing FF/FG's arse are not interested in the challenge of going in to government, but what about the right of the voters to appoint alternative parties and independents who they believe will deliver better accountability and oversight? Isn't this what democracy is about, freedom of choice and the expectation that there will be democratic representatives present to do the important work of opposition as well as those who choose government.

The fact of the matter is that there is more at play, it's now more a case of FF/FG having a whinge that they can't take turns controlling the dail anymore, and nowhere more is this in evidence than their failure to have a go at Labour alongside the others.

I'll say it again and again and again, this isn't about who goes in to government, it's about keeping some semblance of control by the 88 year order.

Thankfully, things won't be that easy, this country since the last term is finally starting to see the value of an opposition that fulfills its democratic function.
I predict that after two more elections Ireland will have a proper left/right divide with the Left in the ascendency !
 

venusian

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2011
Messages
6,936
People rarely actually understand our rather unique political system. Its nothing like the more representative version in the UK where parliament is a big deal. Here, is mostly a hot air and grandstanding forum for windbags. You may impress the peasants with lofty speeches but you have zero chance of actually getting anything done.

It needs changing. But you know.........men of 1916 would be turning in their graves or something.
Well, when you have fascist scum like FG/"labour" and of course FF have plenty of experience in doling it out too, of guillotining debates and ramming very dodgy legislation through the Dail of course it needs changing. It will change but it will take a while yet!
 

former wesleyan

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Nov 29, 2009
Messages
25,974
Well, when you have fascist scum like FG/"labour" and of course FF have plenty of experience in doling it out too, of guillotining debates and ramming very dodgy legislation through the Dail of course it needs changing. It will change but it will take a while yet!
Fascist scum ! A shower of hillbillies in ill-fitting suits barely a generation from the greasy fumblers more like.
 

Windowshopper

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Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
9,017
There really should be rules around OPs and OP headlines. In a lot of cases the headlines and the OPs are so biased on one side that it makes discussion of the issue harder and unfairly frames it the issue. Btw I have also being thinking that if the official opposition tacitly support the government then it does raises questions about the role of the opposition.
 

Windowshopper

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
9,017
People rarely actually understand our rather unique political system. Its nothing like the more representative version in the UK where parliament is a big deal. Here, is mostly a hot air and grandstanding forum for windbags. You may impress the peasants with lofty speeches but you have zero chance of actually getting anything done.

It needs changing. But you know.........men of 1916 would be turning in their graves or something.
The UK parliament isn't representative in the slightest. You could barely call the plurality system which they use democratic.
 

Ruadh

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Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
2,559
Great post about how Irish society perceives power and it's control.
Basically that in government is the place to be and the opposition is only fluteraling until it gets its turn. There is, and can be, no substance to any opposition argument. It's only what you do as Pat Rabbitte said.
This then follows to the idea of control. Politicians are regarded as having no control. Sure there all the same in outlook so no point in not just biding time in opposition. When they get in they will implement the same ideas under control of the civil servants, the EU neo liberals, or other agents of the orthodoxy. The idea that a politician would or could have a view not originating in the orthodoxy is beyond imagination to them. Many politicians believe they have no control and worse cannot even seen to imagine there could be a situation where they would want to have control or determine their own route.

Irish politics or at least it's governments are nearly entirely reactive.

Excellent post bot. Maybe some of the more subtle thinkers might be along to actually think about it shortly.
 


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