The EU, the UK, Ulster & the Final Solution

Catalpast

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Yes folks we have been tying ourselves up in knots as to having to square the conundrum as to what the Status of the North will be once the UK leaves the EU

Most of the people in the North want to remain in the EU

Most of the people in the North want to remain in the UK

What is to be done that will square this circle and be acceptable to all parties?

Of course like most things the Solution is staring us in the face:

ENCLAVES!:cool:

Yes under EU Rules its possible for a Territory to be both part of the EU and yet observe the Laws of another

They are studded around Europe and some offer some intriguing solutions to how to solve this latest 'Ulster Crises'

9 European 'enclaves'

NO 2 looks interesting:

2. Busingen
This one-street, picture-postcard German village stretches for over a mile along the right bank of the Rhine and is fully surrounded by Switzerland. Restaurant Waldheim is right on the border so you can order your drinks and food in Germany and consume them outside at one of the tables that are in Switzerland. The walking trail near Restaurant Waldheim will take you across the border too.
The village is 7.62 kilometres square with a population of approximately 1400 and in reality is a suburb of Schaffhausen the Swiss canton that surrounds it. Economically Swiss, it is not part of the EU.


And 3

3. Campione d’Italia
An Italian municipality in the Lombardy region, which nestles on the banks of Lake Lugano. The lake and the surrounding mountains separate this comune from the rest of Italy. Despite being Italian, it isn’t in the EU and the currency is the Swiss Franc. Campione is exempt from EU VAT and the municipality takes advantage of this by operating Europe’s largest casino: the Casinò di Campione.

Some one please tell Leo ......
 


Nitrogen

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There is no such thing in geopolitics as a final solution

Sic transit gloria mundi
 

Spirit Of Newgrange

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will Ulster follow the pattern of some of the former Yugoslav enclaves when their Empire fell ?
 

Roll_On

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They're all miniscule places though. NI has 1.8 million people, is about one third of Switzerland's land area, it has some heavy industry a lot of countryside and environmental concerns, an international airport and a City region of 600,000 people, if it were in Switzerland it'd be the second largest City. Apples and oranges.
 

Eire1976

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Most Irish people in the 6 Counties want to remain in the EU.

A majority of farmers in the NE want to remain in the EU.

A majority of business people who do conduct a lot of business island wide and further across Europe want to remain in the EU.

I cannot see where the DUP gets it mandate from?

It has to be based on an ideological hatred of anything that would help bring unity closer.
 

Catalpast

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They're all miniscule places though. NI has 1.8 million people, is about one third of Switzerland's land area, it has some heavy industry a lot of countryside and environmental concerns, an international airport and a City region of 600,000 people, if it were in Switzerland it'd be the second largest City. Apples and oranges.
The Principle is well established in EU relations

Surely it is not beyond the wit of Man

- to apply something similar to the island of Ireland?
 

Eire1976

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The Principle is well established in EU relations

Surely it is not beyond the wit of Man

- to apply something similar to the island of Ireland?
That's if you were dealing with rational people.

The British community in the NE are not rational - the DUP are the most irrational of that community.

They are driven by an ideological hatred of all things Irish. So much so that they are happy to cut their nose off to spite us.
 

Henry94.

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What happens to the north will be determined by the success or failure of brexit. If it goes well and the UK becomes a prosporous beacon of free trade and liberty we may find ourselves tring to get in on the act by quitting the EU and getting back into the uk.

If on the other hand, it's a disaster the north may decide that it's best interests lie in triggering the unification mechanism of the GFA. We won't know either way until Brexit happens.
 
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Cdebru

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The Principle is well established in EU relations

Surely it is not beyond the wit of Man

- to apply something similar to the island of Ireland?
You realise the difference between these and the North ? Switzerland has a relationship with the EU that breaches most of the UK red lines, for example on freedom of movement, single market, paying into the EU budget etc, most of the other enclaves are territory of EU state inside another EU state, I don't think any of them are the size of the North, or part of a much larger country that wants to do it's own trade deals outside of EU trade deals.
 

Roll_On

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This problem is already solved, there will be no customs controls between Ireland and NI which means NI will have regulatory alignment with the EU. May also assured the DUP there will be no customs controls between NI and GB, therefore there will be no customs controls between NI and GB as long as the DUP hold the Westministed influence they have now. Effectively that means the UK will have regulatory alignment with the EU, so long as the DUP hold on to power. Basically the UK will now be paying huge sums of money to effectively remain in the EU. Self-inflicted wounds and all that.
 

Roll_On

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What happens to the north will be determined by the success or failure of brexit. If it goes well and the UK becomes a prosporous becon of free trade and liberty we may find ourselves tring to get in on the act by quitting the EU and getting back into the uk.
Lol, they'll be bringing back the ration book in a few years.
 

Jim Car

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Most of the people in the North want to remain in the EU

Most of the people in the North want to remain in the UK
That is the main issue and the fact is and to put it bluntly people have great feeling of loyalty towards their country then towards a glorified trading block. EU is fighting a losing battle if it expect to be able to have people switch loyalty from their country to the EU, its simple not going to happen. People though it might be the case in Scotland but that was put to sleep in the last election. People clearly said yes we want the EU but naturally enough chose their country over an institution when it was a choice between one or the other.
 

Barroso

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That's if you were dealing with rational people.

The British community in the NE are not rational - the DUP are the most irrational of that community.

They are driven by an ideological hatred of all things Irish. So much so that they are happy to cut their nose off to spite us.
You obviously haven't been following the goings-on up there for very long if you believe that the DUP is the most irrational group in the 6.
They are large and in your face, but there are even madder groups than them.
 

Ex celt

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Despite the 1920s/30s abstentionist whinings of the IRA and its adherents Brexit will be a huge success for the UK and in particular NI. The decent unionist population,both prod and RC,will profit from this whilst PIRA supporters will wallow in self pity whittering on about an ILA. At least the DUP is pro-business. PIRA/PIRA’s supporters tend not to be.
 

mac tíre

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That is the main issue and the fact is and to put it bluntly people have great feeling of loyalty towards their country then towards a glorified trading block. EU is fighting a losing battle if it expect to be able to have people switch loyalty from their country to the EU, its simple not going to happen.
This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of attachment to the UK in the north. Of course there are many, many Unionists who feel an attachment to the UK as their country.

Those numbers alone, though, may not save it come a border poll. The reason being that some who favoured the UK did so because of economics or because they felt comfortable financially/in their identity because we were all (UK and Ireland) part of the EU. Don't forget that the majority in the north voted Remain.

The decision to Brexit has changed that - completely. The relative prosperity of the 26 counties has reinforced that because people are now openly contrasting the differences.

Unionism is now a minority in the north (granted, so is Nationalism) - it is Others who now hold a balance of power and most of those others are livid about leaving the EU.

People though it might be the case in Scotland but that was put to sleep in the last election. People clearly said yes we want the EU but naturally enough chose their country over an institution when it was a choice between one or the other.
In the Scottish referendum the voters were told they would be part of the EU in the UK and that an Independent Scotland wouldn't. This helped the Better Together campaign.

Bear in mind, Scotland voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
 

Jim Car

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This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of attachment to the UK in the north. Of course there are many, many Unionists who feel an attachment to the UK as their country.

Those numbers alone, though, may not save it come a border poll. The reason being that some who favoured the UK did so because of economics or because they felt comfortable financially/in their identity because we were all (UK and Ireland) part of the EU. Don't forget that the majority in the north voted Remain.

The decision to Brexit has changed that - completely. The relative prosperity of the 26 counties has reinforced that because people are now openly contrasting the differences.

Unionism is now a minority in the north (granted, so is Nationalism) - it is Others who now hold a balance of power and most of those others are livid about leaving the EU.



In the Scottish referendum the voters were told they would be part of the EU in the UK and that an Independent Scotland wouldn't. This helped the Better Together campaign.

Bear in mind, Scotland voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
First off I would say if you think those who will tip the boarder poll either way (and I admit it could go either way) would do so based sold on economics then you are missing an important fact. Yes economics is important and has supported on or at least been used as an issue in other secession movements, but there is more to it then that. I have family who would fall into by in large the middle ground catholic professional and don't have time for SF or DUP they care about their jobs and future prospect, but they are also proudly Irish and British and will always correct anyone who tries to paint them as being less so due to their religion, or geographical location, so they are in favour of the union but would very much so differentiate themselves from "unionists". Many others feel that way as well but obviously not all. I can tell you they like the EU, voted remain but I have asked them the same question, country or institution/glorified trading block and they, like most people would pick country every time.

My point in relation to Scotland was yes most (60% or so) voted remain but those same voters punished the SNP who were trying to bang up support for a second referendum. They wanted to stay in the EU but when it came to deciding in the last election they picked their country over the EU as would the vast majority of people.

EU is fighting a loosing battle if it is attempting to flip peoples allegiances that traditional like with their countries/states.
 

death or glory

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Most Irish people in the 6 Counties want to remain in the EU.

A majority of farmers in the NE want to remain in the EU.

A majority of business people who do conduct a lot of business island wide and further across Europe want to remain in the EU.

I cannot see where the DUP gets it mandate from?

It has to be based on an ideological hatred of anything that would help bring unity closer.
Maybe it gets it's mandate about knowing a lot more about the people of Ulster than you.

How do you know "A majority of farmers", the Ulster Farmers Union would not take sides on the issue, and the vast majority of the farmers I know were for Brexit even though claiming EU single farm payments.
 


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