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The European economic crisis - individual responsibility can only be stretched so far.


duthealla

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 31, 2011
Messages
1,821
Hasn't the Cyprus debacle been informative. Everyone finger pointing trying to implicate each other. Nobody wanting to say they tried bullyin Cyprus instead it was an experiment on whether contagion spreads when the country is differentiated enough and sure aren't they Russian mobsters anyhow.

Its typical of what we've heard for years now. You the individual are entirely responsible.

We know the Spanish are responsible because they are feckless and corrupt spendthrifts who wasted good money on a huge housing boom and spent recklessly even if they generally didn't run deficits and had low debt to GDB. They and they alone are responsible. 5 million unemployed - sure that's their own making

We know our fine leader Enda Kenny feels that the Irish and the Irish alone are responsible for the crisis. He even went to Davos and told the World economic forum that "What happened in our country was that people simply went mad borrowing." Old Paddy lost the run of himself as Enda might say. Over 14% unemployment with no chance of it going down. That's you call Padraig you made that bed.

Those feckless Greeks well sure they lied about their banks, nobody pays taxes and its all a mess. 26% unemployment. Serves your right Stavros you should have been like our German friends

The Portuguese never adapted to living in a democracy, have no idea about running an effective economy and seem reluctant to really implement austerity and win over confidence.

The Cypriots are Russian mafia pawns - nobody to blame but themselves. You can break the law with people who know no rule of law.

The Italians are on the list as well - political comedians. They and they alone are responsible for a situation where 1000 businesses a day are failing, where liquidity has vanished, and job prospects or support for young families is nearly non-existent.

And what about the French. Well there lazy aren't they even though their productivity is higher than America's. But their economy is tanking, employment is rising and hard times are approaching for them.

We've become accustomed to hearing how the population of each individual country is somewhat delinquent. Individually each argument bears some truth but is often framed in an odious fashion full of stereotypes.

However start to look at the collective picture.

Greece 11 million, Portugal 10, Ireland 6 million, Spain 47 million, Italy 61 million, France 65 million, Cyprus 1 million.

The populations of the individually delinquent European nations total 201 million. The European Union has 503 million. 40% (approx.) of the EU are persons individually and solely responsible for the respective mess in their own countries. And you know what they certainly did contribute but with 40% of the union now living in countries either collapsed, collapsing, or simply depressed you have to wonder at what point people begin to collectively wonder about the contribution of the European Union or more accurately the economic model of the European union.

40% of Europe in deep trouble yet somehow its all down to individuals.

That's some myth they have going there isn't it.
 

wishywashy

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 19, 2010
Messages
2,616
Hasn't the Cyprus debacle been informative. Everyone finger pointing trying to implicate each other. Nobody wanting to say they tried bullyin Cyprus instead it was an experiment on whether contagion spreads when the country is differentiated enough and sure aren't they Russian mobsters anyhow.

Its typical of what we've heard for years now. You the individual are entirely responsible.

We know the Spanish are responsible because they are feckless and corrupt spendthrifts who wasted good money on a huge housing boom and spent recklessly even if they generally didn't run deficits and had low debt to GDB. They and they alone are responsible. 5 million unemployed - sure that's their own making

We know our fine leader Enda Kenny feels that the Irish and the Irish alone are responsible for the crisis. He even went to Davos and told the World economic forum that "What happened in our country was that people simply went mad borrowing." Old Paddy lost the run of himself as Enda might say. Over 14% unemployment with no chance of it going down. That's you call Padraig you made that bed.

Those feckless Greeks well sure they lied about their banks, nobody pays taxes and its all a mess. 26% unemployment. Serves your right Stavros you should have been like our German friends

The Portuguese never adapted to living in a democracy, have no idea about running an effective economy and seem reluctant to really implement austerity and win over confidence.

The Cypriots are Russian mafia pawns - nobody to blame but themselves. You can break the law with people who know no rule of law.

The Italians are on the list as well - political comedians. They and they alone are responsible for a situation where 1000 businesses a day are failing, where liquidity has vanished, and job prospects or support for young families is nearly non-existent.

And what about the French. Well there lazy aren't they even though their productivity is higher than America's. But their economy is tanking, employment is rising and hard times are approaching for them.

We've become accustomed to hearing how the population of each individual country is somewhat delinquent. Individually each argument bears some truth but is often framed in an odious fashion full of stereotypes.

However start to look at the collective picture.

Greece 11 million, Portugal 10, Ireland 6 million, Spain 47 million, Italy 61 million, France 65 million, Cyprus 1 million.

The populations of the individually delinquent European nations total 201 million. The European Union has 503 million. 40% (approx.) of the EU are persons individually and solely responsible for the respective mess in their own countries. And you know what they certainly did contribute but with 40% of the union now living in countries either collapsed, collapsing, or simply depressed you have to wonder at what point people begin to collectively wonder about the contribution of the European Union or more accurately the economic model of the European union.

40% of Europe in deep trouble yet somehow its all down to individuals.

That's some myth they have going there isn't it.


Some f.ucking racket indeed.
 

shiel

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
16,889
The decisions which bankrupt this country were made by a small number of its most powerful citizens in charge of its most influential institutions.

Ordinary people were given a spin-doctored, unjustifiedly optimistic view of the situation for years during the Celtic tiger period.

Blaming ordinary people for what happened is, therefore, wrong.
 

duthealla

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 31, 2011
Messages
1,821
The decisions which bankrupt this country were made by a small number of its most powerful citizens in charge of its most influential institutions.

Ordinary people were given a spin-doctored, unjustifiedly optimistic view of the situation for years during the Celtic tiger period.

Blaming ordinary people for what happened is, therefore, wrong.
And yet in each country its the same story. The best country of those 200 million delinquents are France and they have hit a 10 year 13 year high in unemployment.
 

viper999

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
2,093
All currency unions fail in the end due to different economic cycles, different interest rate needs, different exchange rates needs, the Brits were on the money staying out
Major economic commentators said the euro wouldn't survive it's first major test, well 5 years in with f.uck all sign of growth, rising deficits, rising unemployment across the ez, mass protests I think it has been an epic failure as an experiment, but I can't see the thing falling apart because of too much political will to save the dam thing, even at the cost of millions of Europeans livelihoods
 

duthealla

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 31, 2011
Messages
1,821
All currency unions fail in the end due to different economic cycles, different interest rate needs, different exchange rates needs, the Brits were on the money staying out
Major economic commentators said the euro wouldn't survive it's first major test, well 5 years in with f.uck all sign of growth, rising deficits, rising unemployment across the ez, mass protests I think it has been an epic failure as an experiment, but I can't see the thing falling apart because of too much political will to save the dam thing, even at the cost of millions of Europeans livelihoods
The political will of person's entirely insulated from any economic side affects. Our President Barroso draws 25k a month salary which is entirely unaffected by the state of utter decay in 40% of the union.

Manuel and Ollie will not shirk from continuing not because of political will but because they are insulated from any negative affects. No matter if Cyprus collapses or Italy goes the way of Greece Barroso will still be entitled to over 1k a month entertainment allowance. That's a fundamental disconnect from reality.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,876
The decisions which bankrupt this country were made by a small number of its most powerful citizens in charge of its most influential institutions.

Ordinary people were given a spin-doctored, unjustifiedly optimistic view of the situation for years during the Celtic tiger period.

Blaming ordinary people for what happened is, therefore, wrong.
Ordinary people voted for economic policies that were batshít crazy.

Using 30 day money to fund 30 year mortgages? Like hello?

They could choose to believe the spin doctors selling them a line about the Money Fairy, or they could choose to believe the people calling for proper planning, sustainable economics, higher taxes, and reduced increases in PS pay, perks and pensions.

They chose to believe the former, because they wanted something for nothing. Free money. Unearned prosperity. The Money Fairy; I'll have some of that please.

25% of economic activity was coming from bank lending.

Not bank lending for investing in the future, but bank lending for consumption and speculation.

Even today we have a government that has spent 8 years tax revenues in 5 years because it is to cowardly to tell people the truth.

Primarily because people don't want to hear the truth.

If people were interested in the truth, and long term sustainable policies, then they hypocritical kleptocrats in Fianna Fail would not be rising in the polls.
 

duthealla

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 31, 2011
Messages
1,821
Ordinary people voted for economic policies that were batshít crazy.

Using 30 day money to fund 30 year mortgages? Like hello?

They could choose to believe the spin doctors selling them a line about the Money Fairy, or they could choose to believe the people calling for proper planning, sustainable economics, higher taxes, and reduced increases in PS pay, perks and pensions.

They chose to believe the former, because they wanted something for nothing. Free money. Unearned prosperity. The Money Fairy; I'll have some of that please.

25% of economic activity was coming from bank lending.

Not bank lending for investing in the future, but bank lending for consumption and speculation.

Even today we have a government that has spent 8 years tax revenues in 5 years because it is to cowardly to tell people the truth.

Primarily because people don't want to hear the truth.

If people were interested in the truth, and long term sustainable policies, then they hypocritical kleptocrats in Fianna Fail would not be rising in the polls.
Look everyone knows ordinary people across Europe should have been more discriminating but look nobody picked a mortgage which wasn't sanctioned by the existing system. People were foolish but foolish more so because they thought the financial and political structures were to be trusted and that trusted beyond the glorified county council that's out freestate here. People here and across Europe believed the EU offered the good governance that was often lacking in their states.

Yet 40% of the EU now in the sh*t isn't it time to start sharing the blame to include all those responsible rather than the cop out of the people alone
 

Porkypie

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
4,240
And yet in each country its the same story. The best country of those 200 million delinquents are France and they have hit a 10 year 13 year high in unemployment.
France has also decided to clean up it's act on transparency and corruption. Sarkosy has been investigated as has/is Lagarde. The strange thing is that during the course of a tax avoidance investigation the government Minister in charge has had to resign. He was found to have a tax avoidance account in a Swiss bank, UBS.
French Minister leading tax evasion crackdown resigns after formal investigation launched | euronews, world news
 

DAZ14

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Messages
450
Great opening post, the problem with the inception of the currency union are the consequences of a) sovereigns states surrendering control of monetary policy b) the inability to devalue ones currency and c) the ECB and the German election. There is no plan for growth, in fact, the entire global economy is doing quite well bar the industralized world, particularly Europe and the Western World. We need a plan for growth and a plan to restore competitiveness and to address the issue of both public and private debts.
 

ibis

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
12,359
Great opening post, the problem with the inception of the currency union are the consequences of a) sovereigns states surrendering control of monetary policy b) the inability to devalue ones currency and c) the ECB and the German election. There is no plan for growth, in fact, the entire global economy is doing quite well bar the industralized world, particularly Europe and the Western World. We need a plan for growth and a plan to restore competitiveness and to address the issue of both public and private debts.
One could equally well say the problem was they the member states only surrendered parts of their monetary policy - basically those they had already surrendered to independent central banks - but retained most of the supervisory and regulatory functions for the banking system in national hands, and then ran lax policies apparently on the assumption that Europe would clean up the mess (or possibly, and more idiotically, on the basis that nothing would ever go wrong).

But no national government in Europe has had the ability to devalue their currency since before the euro - that power was already handed to independent central banks, along with interest rate powers, because politicians were recognised as being too fond of using those powers for short-term fixes and lasting pain.
 

Mad as Fish

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
24,449
Hasn't the Cyprus debacle been informative. Everyone finger pointing trying to implicate each other. Nobody wanting to say they tried bullyin Cyprus instead it was an experiment on whether contagion spreads when the country is differentiated enough and sure aren't they Russian mobsters anyhow.

Its typical of what we've heard for years now. You the individual are entirely responsible.

We know the Spanish are responsible because they are feckless and corrupt spendthrifts who wasted good money on a huge housing boom and spent recklessly even if they generally didn't run deficits and had low debt to GDB. They and they alone are responsible. 5 million unemployed - sure that's their own making

We know our fine leader Enda Kenny feels that the Irish and the Irish alone are responsible for the crisis. He even went to Davos and told the World economic forum that "What happened in our country was that people simply went mad borrowing." Old Paddy lost the run of himself as Enda might say. Over 14% unemployment with no chance of it going down. That's you call Padraig you made that bed.

Those feckless Greeks well sure they lied about their banks, nobody pays taxes and its all a mess. 26% unemployment. Serves your right Stavros you should have been like our German friends

The Portuguese never adapted to living in a democracy, have no idea about running an effective economy and seem reluctant to really implement austerity and win over confidence.

The Cypriots are Russian mafia pawns - nobody to blame but themselves. You can break the law with people who know no rule of law.

The Italians are on the list as well - political comedians. They and they alone are responsible for a situation where 1000 businesses a day are failing, where liquidity has vanished, and job prospects or support for young families is nearly non-existent.

And what about the French. Well there lazy aren't they even though their productivity is higher than America's. But their economy is tanking, employment is rising and hard times are approaching for them.

We've become accustomed to hearing how the population of each individual country is somewhat delinquent. Individually each argument bears some truth but is often framed in an odious fashion full of stereotypes.

However start to look at the collective picture.

Greece 11 million, Portugal 10, Ireland 6 million, Spain 47 million, Italy 61 million, France 65 million, Cyprus 1 million.

The populations of the individually delinquent European nations total 201 million. The European Union has 503 million. 40% (approx.) of the EU are persons individually and solely responsible for the respective mess in their own countries. And you know what they certainly did contribute but with 40% of the union now living in countries either collapsed, collapsing, or simply depressed you have to wonder at what point people begin to collectively wonder about the contribution of the European Union or more accurately the economic model of the European union.

40% of Europe in deep trouble yet somehow its all down to individuals.

That's some myth they have going there isn't it.
Excellent post and you are bang on when it comes to lack of prospects. When we are reduced to the situation of applauding 155 supposed new jobs as if they are some harbinger of eternal prosperity then you know you've got to look out side of the country for a living. It has becomes obvious that the politicians have given up on trying to provide a worthwhile economy in Ireland, if they ever bothered their asses in the first place, and the EU simply does not give a flying feck, other than to shift the blame as you so rightly point out.
 

Mad as Fish

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
24,449
All currency unions fail in the end due to different economic cycles, different interest rate needs, different exchange rates needs, the Brits were on the money staying out
Major economic commentators said the euro wouldn't survive it's first major test, well 5 years in with f.uck all sign of growth, rising deficits, rising unemployment across the ez, mass protests I think it has been an epic failure as an experiment, but I can't see the thing falling apart because of too much political will to save the dam thing, even at the cost of millions of Europeans livelihoods
You missed out different cultures, history's and social structures. These are the warm, fuzzy, undefinable factors that make us human and life worth living yet they do not show up on the radar of the pointy headed economists and simple minded politicians. You cannot create a Europe of little German clones, in fact, even Germany can't create a country full of little German clones.
 

Mad as Fish

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
24,449
Ordinary people voted for economic policies that were batshít crazy.

Using 30 day money to fund 30 year mortgages? Like hello?

They could choose to believe the spin doctors selling them a line about the Money Fairy, or they could choose to believe the people calling for proper planning, sustainable economics, higher taxes, and reduced increases in PS pay, perks and pensions.

They chose to believe the former, because they wanted something for nothing. Free money. Unearned prosperity. The Money Fairy; I'll have some of that please.

25% of economic activity was coming from bank lending.

Not bank lending for investing in the future, but bank lending for consumption and speculation.

Even today we have a government that has spent 8 years tax revenues in 5 years because it is to cowardly to tell people the truth.

Primarily because people don't want to hear the truth.

If people were interested in the truth, and long term sustainable policies, then they hypocritical kleptocrats in Fianna Fail would not be rising in the polls.
Well what a bunch of stupid friggin banks!
 

pippakin

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
9,665
Hasn't the Cyprus debacle been informative. Everyone finger pointing trying to implicate each other. Nobody wanting to say they tried bullyin Cyprus instead it was an experiment on whether contagion spreads when the country is differentiated enough and sure aren't they Russian mobsters anyhow.

Its typical of what we've heard for years now. You the individual are entirely responsible.

We know the Spanish are responsible because they are feckless and corrupt spendthrifts who wasted good money on a huge housing boom and spent recklessly even if they generally didn't run deficits and had low debt to GDB. They and they alone are responsible. 5 million unemployed - sure that's their own making

We know our fine leader Enda Kenny feels that the Irish and the Irish alone are responsible for the crisis. He even went to Davos and told the World economic forum that "What happened in our country was that people simply went mad borrowing." Old Paddy lost the run of himself as Enda might say. Over 14% unemployment with no chance of it going down. That's you call Padraig you made that bed.

Those feckless Greeks well sure they lied about their banks, nobody pays taxes and its all a mess. 26% unemployment. Serves your right Stavros you should have been like our German friends

The Portuguese never adapted to living in a democracy, have no idea about running an effective economy and seem reluctant to really implement austerity and win over confidence.

The Cypriots are Russian mafia pawns - nobody to blame but themselves. You can break the law with people who know no rule of law.

The Italians are on the list as well - political comedians. They and they alone are responsible for a situation where 1000 businesses a day are failing, where liquidity has vanished, and job prospects or support for young families is nearly non-existent.

And what about the French. Well there lazy aren't they even though their productivity is higher than America's. But their economy is tanking, employment is rising and hard times are approaching for them.

We've become accustomed to hearing how the population of each individual country is somewhat delinquent. Individually each argument bears some truth but is often framed in an odious fashion full of stereotypes.

However start to look at the collective picture.

Greece 11 million, Portugal 10, Ireland 6 million, Spain 47 million, Italy 61 million, France 65 million, Cyprus 1 million.

The populations of the individually delinquent European nations total 201 million. The European Union has 503 million. 40% (approx.) of the EU are persons individually and solely responsible for the respective mess in their own countries. And you know what they certainly did contribute but with 40% of the union now living in countries either collapsed, collapsing, or simply depressed you have to wonder at what point people begin to collectively wonder about the contribution of the European Union or more accurately the economic model of the European union.

40% of Europe in deep trouble yet somehow its all down to individuals.

That's some myth they have going there isn't it.
It is down to individuals to the individual bankers, property developers and the politicians who allowed their gambling to go unchecked. What is obvious is the problem is Europe wide so that individual bankers, property developers and politicians have each shown no concern for their own country or the people in those countries.

I would like to see the EU say enough is enough and write off the outstanding debts burning or preferably bankrupting those banks who made reckless loans. The reason it won't happen is that the main bankers lending so foolishly were German.

For the future there does need to be some strict regulation about banking and the kind of reckless speculation that has brought us to this dire situation.
 

shiel

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
16,889
Great opening post, the problem with the inception of the currency union are the consequences of a) sovereigns states surrendering control of monetary policy b) the inability to devalue ones currency and c) the ECB and the German election. There is no plan for growth, in fact, the entire global economy is doing quite well bar the industralized world, particularly Europe and the Western World. We need a plan for growth and a plan to restore competitiveness and to address the issue of both public and private debts.
There was a question mark over whether we should have joined the euro zone. But that is water under the bridge.

In the event when we did we were one of the few of seventeen in total that have gone bankrupt.

Our most powerful citizens, who were in control of the billions collected in taxation and the even bigger billions of savings, are responsible for that.

The time for the plan was during the Celtic tiger period. Before that we were competitive. All the plan had to do back then was to maintain that competitiveness.

Instead we had headlines in the media saying that double digit increases in expenditure were 'the best of all budgets'.

We had similar headlines about our financial masters 'walking on water'.

'Never a better time to buy' was the message on property.

Blaming the EU, whose institutions are keeping the holes in the wall open now, and ordinary people, who were fed spin doctored propaganda, is not right.
 

Ruth Carter

New member
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
1
Things may get worse before they get better in the European financial crisis, Reuters reports. The European Central Bank is pressuring for a combined guarantee on bank deposits across the euro zone, amid worries that bank runs will spread like wildfire as investors head for the hills. Top economic official of the European Commission Olli Rehn cautioned that without additional monetary discipline, Europe will descend into a financial chasm. Source of article: personalmoneynetwork.com
 

McDave

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
13,557
Ordinary people voted for economic policies that were batshít crazy.

Using 30 day money to fund 30 year mortgages? Like hello?

They could choose to believe the spin doctors selling them a line about the Money Fairy, or they could choose to believe the people calling for proper planning, sustainable economics, higher taxes, and reduced increases in PS pay, perks and pensions.

They chose to believe the former, because they wanted something for nothing. Free money. Unearned prosperity. The Money Fairy; I'll have some of that please.

25% of economic activity was coming from bank lending.

Not bank lending for investing in the future, but bank lending for consumption and speculation.

Even today we have a government that has spent 8 years tax revenues in 5 years because it is to cowardly to tell people the truth.

Primarily because people don't want to hear the truth.

If people were interested in the truth, and long term sustainable policies, then they hypocritical kleptocrats in Fianna Fail would not be rising in the polls.
Well said.

You can't blame it all on individuals. But anyone who was remotely paying attention here could see the voter gave the green light to reckless spending and borrowed cash for all. The genius of the Irish people extolled in our Constitution was nowhere to be seen.

Ultimately, in democracies the only bulwark to elites and vested interests are electorates. Ours was asleep at the wheel, allowing fools like Ahern, McCreevy and their banking and construction buddies to drive a perfectly serviceable economy and society over the cliff.
 

andimill

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2013
Messages
1
Things may get worse before they get better in the European financial crisis, Reuters reports. The European Central Bank is pressuring for a joint guarantee on bank deposits across the euro zone, amid worries that bank runs will spread like wildfire as investors head for the hills. Top economic official of the European Commission Olli Rehn cautioned that without added monetary discipline, Europe will descend into a financial chasm.
 

Trainwreck

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Messages
26,809
40% of Europe in deep trouble yet somehow its all down to individuals.

That's some myth they have going there isn't it.
Collectively, that is true. Take away the emotion and it is just a basic statement of fact.

But you don't complete your appraisal of cause and effect.


Each individual person is repsonsible for their own financial problems.

The board and executive of each bank is responsible for its own financial problems

Each bank share hoolder is responsible for their financal loss on bank share

Then there are central banks, regulators and politicians who are responsible for the collective mess.



So you have justification for blaming the wider crisis on central banks that left monetary policy too lax and allowed a massive credit bubble to develop.

You can blame regulators for failing to provide proper oversight of lending institutions and demand they be held to account.

You can blame politiicans for aowing insufficient regulatory resources or institutions and demand they resign or vote them out.

And you can also blame all the stupid borrowers who borrowed all the money and demand they be repsonsible for their own financial plight.



Doing any one of those things doesn't preclude any other. So I can blame the mass of individuals who borrowed all that money and created a bubble in housing demand or excessively consumed. And that does not mena I am giving a free pass to regulators, central bankers, bankers or politicians.
 
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