• It has come to our attention that some users may have been "banned" when they tried to change their passwords after the site was hacked due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software. This would have occurred around the end of February and does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you believe you were affected by this, please contact a staff member or use the Contact us link at the bottom of any forum page.

The expulsion of Germans from eastern Europe


JohnD66

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2010
Messages
3,316
An Irish historian RM Douglas has written a new book on the ethnic cleansing (there's no other word) of German minorities from central and eastern Europe in 1945. Interview with him here on the New Books network.

R. M. Douglas, “Orderly and Humane: The Expulsion of the Germans after the Second World War” (Yale UP, 2012)

What's really chilling is that apparently the western allies (as well as the Soviets) planned this and knew that there would be a humanitarian disaster, but basically didn't care as they thought leaving German minorities in place would lead to more wars in the future.

Now I know a lot people will just say, 'they had it coming' due to what the Germans did in the war, but apparently between 500,000 to 1.5 million people lost their lives in this episode. A dark chapter.

Edit: apparently he also wrote a book on the Irish wartime fascist group Ailteori na hAisergi ('Architects of the Resurrection'). http://counterenlightenment.blogspot.ie/2011/09/review-of-architects-of-resurrection-by.html
 
Last edited:

parentheses

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
13,802
An Irish historian RM Douglas has written a new book on the ethnic cleansing (there's no other word) of German minorities from central and eastern Europe in 1945. Interview with him here on the New Books network.

R. M. Douglas, “Orderly and Humane: The Expulsion of the Germans after the Second World War” (Yale UP, 2012)


What's really chilling is that apparently the western allies (as well as the Soviets) planned this and knew that there would be a humanitarian disaster, but basically didn't care as they thought leaving German minorities in place would lead to more wars in the future.

Now I know a lot people will just say, 'they had it coming' due to what the Germans did in the war, but apparently between 500,000 to 1.5 million people lost their lives in this episode. A dark chapter.
It was inevitable though. The German minorities had helped to destabilise and destroy their host countries.

And the Nazi authorities should have evacuated those areas in a timely manner in any case.
 

carruthers

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
4,197
Indeed, while you wouldn't condone it, at the same time it is very easy to understand it.
 

Aindriu

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
8,702
Hindsight is such a wonderful thing. The allies had just been through the most cataclysmic event of the twentieth century. They had every reason to fear another war given how easily the German people were captivated by Hitler. Barbaric as it seems to us now, they really had no other choice in 1945 if they were to stabilise Europe.
 

Levellers

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
14,103
Lots of individually sad stories but inevitable given what the Nazis did. Mind you there were enough Nazis in the countries of Poland, Croatia, Lithuania, Latvia, etcetera.
 

Casablanca

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 21, 2011
Messages
7,570
There are 2 other interesting books on this subject as well:

Savage Continent: Europe in the Aftermath of World War II: Keith Lowe
After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation: Giles MacDonagh.

I think it's a fascinating subject and it interests me in a slightly different. I travel to Berlin a lot and have made some German friends over the years. I think the events of the aftermath of the war did as much to shape the Germanic work ethic and frugality as did the war itself. I know it's popular on P.ie to lash out at Germany as the author of all our wrongs. I find that an over-simplification to put it mildly. I admire the country and it's people and in particular, their way of conducting business and their lifestyle choices. And that does not in any way, condone the German behaviour during the war. I can understand that it's human nature to seek revenge. As I said, it interests me more from the point of view of how it infuences Germany today.
 

Little_Korean

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
4,231
I think it's a fascinating subject and it interests me in a slightly different. I travel to Berlin a lot and have made some German friends over the years. I think the events of the aftermath of the war did as much to shape the Germanic work ethic and frugality as much as the war itself. I know it's popular on P.ie to lash out at Germany as the author of all our wrongs. I find that an over-simplification to put it mildly. I admire the country and it's people and in particular, their way of conducting business and their lifestyle choices.
Indeed - in our current condition we could take a page from their book on how to pull yourself together!
 
D

Dylan2010

Indeed - in our current condition we could take a page from their book on how to pull yourself together!
they are a more serious people, I doubt they would have voted for the Nazi party again if they were allowed run in the 50's , Whats the bets FF will be in gov. again within 10 years?
 

JohnD66

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2010
Messages
3,316
I don't know folks this is the worst case of 'whataboutery' I've ever seen. You're talking in some cases about massacres of women and children to terrorise the others into leaving.

If it was necessary surely there was some better way of doing it? Two wrongs (admittedly the first wrong is so horrible as to make almost anything imaginable) don't make a right surely?
 

YouKnowWhatIMeanLike

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
7,204
An Irish historian RM Douglas has written a new book on the ethnic cleansing (there's no other word) of German minorities from central and eastern Europe in 1945. Interview with him here on the New Books network.

R. M. Douglas, “Orderly and Humane: The Expulsion of the Germans after the Second World War” (Yale UP, 2012)

What's really chilling is that apparently the western allies (as well as the Soviets) planned this and knew that there would be a humanitarian disaster, but basically didn't care as they thought leaving German minorities in place would lead to more wars in the future.

Now I know a lot people will just say, 'they had it coming' due to what the Germans did in the war, but apparently between 500,000 to 1.5 million people lost their lives in this episode. A dark chapter.
is this a quiq pro quo for the promissory note deal?
 

stopdoingstuff

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
22,897
It was a crime against humanity, just as the bombing of Dresden was a war crime.
 

Dr Pat

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
10,219
The justification, understanding and 'let's move on' comments by some posters on this thread are despicable.
 

Seanie Lemass

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2010
Messages
20,159
Most of the Gemans who were victims had been where they were for generations. Nothing to do with the Nazi expansion at all. Several million people were killed by the Stalinists in the east following 1945 and you did not have to be 'German' to qualify. It was as bad if not worse than the 1930s purges and more random in that it did not just focus on political dissidents. Even at the very end of his life Stalin was planning another bloodbath, focused on Jews and presaged by the 'Doctors Plot' in the Soviet Union and the Slansky trial of leading CP members in Czechoslovakia who were Jews.
 

Dame_Enda

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
52,042
This wasn't (imho) so much the West sanctioning it as caving into the inevitable that these people were in the path of Stalin's armies and therefore Stalin could do what he wanted to them. It was a terrible act of ethnic-cleansing and a stain on the reputation of the Allies. But I don't shed any tears over it because their presence in these countries had been a large factor in causing WW2.

But don't forget that many of these Germans weren't even in non-German Eastern European countries. Many lived in territories then part of historic-Germany. I think in moral terms that expulsion is morally more problematic. I refer in particular to Silesia and East Prussia. The latter had been under ethnic-German rule for 700 years.
 
Top