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The Fall and Fall of New Politics

sic transit

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Jan 30, 2008
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There's always a sharp intake of breath when a politician presents a new vision or claims to have reinvented the wheel through new politics. What has been clear since our last visit to the polls is that there is a new reality, at least for now.

How well that is actually working is open to debate and there is an increasing sense that it really doesn't work at all. There is undeniably something democratic about legislative proposals coming from outside the government. What may not be in our best interest is that such proposals could become law by pure weight of numbers, with or without the aid of selective abstention. Add to this the matter of a not wholly stable government and we are being ill-served by those we voted for.

As much as politicians may mutter new politics it's all little more than self-serving jostling for the forthcoming election, quite probably upon us in 2017.

In FG there's an anxiety about the leadership and how they can deal with that in advance of such an election. They seem weary of the arrangement and even less convinced of the merit of it now. Their approach to the junior elements of government is to grin and bear it. Even so they seem to be driven by the need to do the right thing and they remain the only party who were serious about government.

FF are getting ready for an election and working on strategies to weaken FG and become the biggest party. At this stage it appears they are using their in but not in status to allow all sorts of votes and proposals to defeat the government.

SF have picked up where they left off and are rapidly turning into their own tribute band. For a party so intent on new politics they have not been able to figure out that antagonism really does little except give a superficial impression they are doing something.

The left have come more to the fore and with alliances we get to hear a whole lot more of their utopian demands and the man in pink and his indignation about alleged financial wrongdoings.

The SDs have turned into a whatever notion Murphy or Donnelly want to be heard on and Labour just want to be angry and relevant.

Finally the Independents in government have mostly lived up to the worst fears of those who have to work with them and those who told us so long before deals were done. Their inability to grasp the concept of collective responsibility just adds to the sense of a political system in disarray.

An election tomorrow would quite probably deliver a similar set of results and the same type of political posturing . The real pity is that politicians don't get that the old ways serve nobody.
 
Last edited:


hollandia

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Sep 11, 2012
Messages
30,151
There's always a sharp intake of breath when a politician presents a new vision or claims to have reinvented the wheel through new politics. What has been clear since our last visit to the polls is that there is a new reality, at least for now.

How well that is actually working is open to debate and there is an increasing sense that it really doesn't work at all. There is undeniably something democratic about legislative proposals coming from outside the government. What may not be in our best interest is that such proposals could become law by pure weight of numbers, with or without the aid of selective abstention. Add to this the matter of a not wholly stable government and we are being ill-served by those we voted for.

As much as politicians may mutter new politics it's all little more than self-serving jostling for the forthcoming election, quite probably upon us in 2017.

In FG there's an anxiety about the leadership and how they can deal with that in advance of such an election. They seem weary of the arrangement and even less convinced of the merit of it now. Their approach to the junior elements of government is to grin and bear it. Even so they seem to be driven by the need to do the right thing and they remain the only party who were serious about government.

FF are getting ready for an election and working on strategies to weaken FG and become the biggest party. At this stage it appears they are using their in but not in status to allow all sorts of votes and proposals to defeat the government.

SF have picked up where they left off and are rapidly turning into their own tribute band. For a party so intent on new politics they have not been able to figure out that antagonism really does little except give a superficial impression they are doing something.

The left have come more to the fore and with alliances we get to hear a whole lot more of their utopian demands and the man in pink and his indignation about alleged financial wrongdoings.

The SDs have turned into a whatever notion Murphy or Donnelly want to be heard on and Labour just want to be angry and relevant.

Finally the Independents in government have mostly lived up to the worst fears of those who have to work with them and those who told us so long before deals were done. Their inability to grasp the concept of collective responsibility just adds to the sense of a political system in disarray.

An election tomorrow would quite probably deliver a similar set of results and the same type of political posturing . The real pity is that politicians don't get that the old ways serve nobody.
Translation: FG good, everyone else bad.

Of course in reality it's never that simple. In each legislature in the history of the state, we have seen good legislation avoided in favour of bad (and to be fair vice versa) purely because the the proposal came from opposition. This new set up does represent a change because legislation can be passed with the support of two of the the big parties. This in effect means that no one can loose the run of themselves. Give it a chance. With Enda gone shortly, FG (depending on who they choose) can actually take control of the situation by building consensus amongst the three big parties. Or dealing wit SF on a case by case basis would take back the whip hand from FF.
 

wombat

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Jun 16, 2007
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The main difference between New politics and Old politics is that a large number of the New politicians are not interested in taking part in a govt whereas it was the main ambition of most Old politicians.
 

Plebian

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Joined
Feb 20, 2011
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9,254
*snigger*

The Electorate passed judgement on FG in the GE, Kenny who drove FG down to 25% desperately wanted to cling onto power at all costs and no one in FG was prepared to take out the Kenny trash.

Result, ye are where ye are and ye deserve to be there.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Jun 30, 2015
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Twitter
No
I see nothing new about Irish politics with the possible exception of a fine display of truth to power by SD and Independents.

As for the current government it is just an obviously hacked together example of old politics.

I'll call new politics in Ireland when neither FF nor FG are in power at any given time.
 

sic transit

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Jan 30, 2008
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25,381
Translation: FG good, everyone else bad.

Of course in reality it's never that simple. In each legislature in the history of the state, we have seen good legislation avoided in favour of bad (and to be fair vice versa) purely because the the proposal came from opposition. This new set up does represent a change because legislation can be passed with the support of two of the the big parties. This in effect means that no one can loose the run of themselves. Give it a chance. With Enda gone shortly, FG (depending on who they choose) can actually take control of the situation by building consensus amongst the three big parties. Or dealing wit SF on a case by case basis would take back the whip hand from FF.
Nope it's actually everyone is, but you feel free to parse it as you choose. This a very poor Dail, where not one of the parties has done anything bar get ready for round two. They seem to imagine a different outcome and have no strategy to deal with a repeat set of numbers.
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
217,847
There's always a sharp intake of breath when a politician presents a new vision or claims to have reinvented the wheel through new politics. What has been clear since our last visit to the polls is that there is a new reality, at least for now.

How well that is actually working is open to debate and there is an increasing sense that it really doesn't work at all. There is undeniably something democratic about legislative proposals coming from outside the government. What may not be in our best interest is that such proposals could become law by pure weight of numbers, with or without the aid of selective abstention. Add to this the matter of a not wholly stable government and we are being ill-served by those we voted for.

As much as politicians may mutter new politics it's all little more than self-serving jostling for the forthcoming election, quite probably upon us in 2017.

In FG there's an anxiety about the leadership and how they can deal with that in advance of such an election. They seem weary of the arrangement and even less convinced of the merit of it now. Their approach to the junior elements of government is to grin and bear it. Even so they seem to be driven by the need to do the right thing and they remain the only party who were serious about government.

FF are getting ready for an election and working on strategies to weaken FG and become the biggest party. At this stage it appears they are using their in but not in status to allow all sorts of votes and proposals to defeat the government.

SF have picked up where they left off and are rapidly turning into their own tribute band. For a party so intent on new politics they have not been able to figure out that antagonism really does little except give a superficial impression they are doing something.

The left have come more to the fore and with alliances we get to hear a whole lot more of their utopian demands and the man in pink and his indignation about alleged financial wrongdoings.

The SDs have turned into a whatever notion Murphy or Donnelly want to be heard on and Labour just want to be angry and relevant.

Finally the Independents in government have mostly lived up to the worst fears of those who have to work with them and those who told us so long before deals were done. Their inability to grasp the concept of collective responsibility just adds to the sense of a political system in disarray.

An election tomorrow would quite probably deliver a similar set of results and the same type of political posturing . The real pity is that politicians don't get that the old ways serve nobody.
The "new" politics is doing what they're slowly learning to do, work with (some) of the other politicians outside of government to bring policies forward.
It's far from perfect and is in fact a backward step in some respects, but for the moment, it is what it is and we are where we are, make the best of it.
 

GabhaDubh

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May 20, 2009
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I see nothing new about Irish politics with the possible exception of a fine display of truth to power by SD and Independents.

As for the current government it is just an obviously hacked together example of old politics.

I'll call new politics in Ireland when neither FF nor FG are in power at any given time.
The new politics is the way the government survives. The existing arrangement is a Coalition Government, it maybe a Coalition by default but, it is still a Coalition and having FG & FG arm in arm is something I thought I would never see.
 

sic transit

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The "new" politics is doing what they're slowly learning to do, work with (some) of the other politicians outside of government to bring policies forward.
It's far from perfect and is in fact a backward step in some respects, but for the moment, it is what it is and we are where we are, make the best of it.
If there was a genuine intention to do so on all sides sure but we don't see that, not even from within government. It's still far more about the usual playing to the gallery and making the right call on when we'll go to the polls again. I don't foresee a huge difference next time out although the makeup of key characters may well change.
 

benroe

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Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Messages
10,444
There's always a sharp intake of breath when a politician presents a new vision or claims to have reinvented the wheel through new politics. What has been clear since our last visit to the polls is that there is a new reality, at least for now.

How well that is actually working is open to debate and there is an increasing sense that it really doesn't work at all. There is undeniably something democratic about legislative proposals coming from outside the government. What may not be in our best interest is that such proposals could become law by pure weight of numbers, with or without the aid of selective abstention. Add to this the matter of a not wholly stable government and we are being ill-served by those we voted for.

As much as politicians may mutter new politics it's all little more than self-serving jostling for the forthcoming election, quite probably upon us in 2017.

In FG there's an anxiety about the leadership and how they can deal with that in advance of such an election. They seem weary of the arrangement and even less convinced of the merit of it now. Their approach to the junior elements of government is to grin and bear it. Even so they seem to be driven by the need to do the right thing and they remain the only party who were serious about government.

FF are getting ready for an election and working on strategies to weaken FG and become the biggest party. At this stage it appears they are using their in but not in status to allow all sorts of votes and proposals to defeat the government.

SF have picked up where they left off and are rapidly turning into their own tribute band. For a party so intent on new politics they have not been able to figure out that antagonism really does little except give a superficial impression they are doing something.

The left have come more to the fore and with alliances we get to hear a whole lot more of their utopian demands and the man in pink and his indignation about alleged financial wrongdoings.

The SDs have turned into a whatever notion Murphy or Donnelly want to be heard on and Labour just want to be angry and relevant.

Finally the Independents in government have mostly lived up to the worst fears of those who have to work with them and those who told us so long before deals were done. Their inability to grasp the concept of collective responsibility just adds to the sense of a political system in disarray.

An election tomorrow would quite probably deliver a similar set of results and the same type of political posturing . The real pity is that politicians don't get that the old ways serve nobody.
New politics? is this what you call it when finally people have realised that voting loyally instead of wisely is why we have so many cute hoors and gombeens in government.
The last GE was the first in a very long time that the civil war parties failed to get half of the votes and i hope that it is the beginning of the end of crony politics.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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Many of those craving "old" politics, seem to equate ramming stuff through the Dail, with proper governance.

"New" politics requires consensus and proper debate. That is how the Dail should work. That's how life works.
 

ne0ica

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I'd even consider voting FF if they weren't such a bunch of corrupt ************************************s. So sad SF have become a hysterical liberal party.
 

GDPR

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If there was a genuine intention to do so on all sides sure but we don't see that, not even from within government. It's still far more about the usual playing to the gallery and making the right call on when we'll go to the polls again. I don't foresee a huge difference next time out although the makeup of key characters may well change.
It will take time for some to get the idea. Next time its possible the only thing that will change is the reversal of the numbers for FG & FF, with perhaps a few less indos, that being the case just by practice if nothing else it will work better next time.

I don't accept that it is now and forever impossible for either FF or FG to get into the high 30's again and for FF maybe even beyond, but for the foreseeable, this is how it will have to be.

You never know, with the right working, it might even make for overall better government.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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Anyway, are there any examples of this new politics?

From what I saw, FG wanted to ignore the result of the election and carry on as though being the largest party was the same as being in a majority position.

Irish Water - kicked to touch. Abortion - kicked to touch. That's old politics. New politics would be if the Dail actually addressed those issues head-on.
 

GDPR

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The last two governments were so bad, that the electorate punished them severely. Cowen and Kenny are the two worst leaders we have ever had. They have consistently put party before country and rewarded unqualified supporters with plum quango jobs. Fook that sh1t and we should never go back. In time things will settle down as we all get used to the new political reality.
 

Jim Car

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FF seem to be working the system quite well MM do a decent job at least the polls think so. As for FG they are having the responsibility of government with out the usual benefits of being in government meaning they take all the blame regardless. Mean while SF look lost. They are pretty p!**ed at not being the leaders of the opposition that they feel the need to self declare themselves so and scream it to the world every now and then. In addition to not being capable of producing any meaningful actions/results in a situation where if properly handled any party of size could have some of its demands met in some form or another. It will be interesting to see how they do next time round because they are certainly not impressing. FF unfortunately look well set.
 

benroe

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If there was a genuine intention to do so on all sides sure but we don't see that, not even from within government. It's still far more about the usual playing to the gallery and making the right call on when we'll go to the polls again. I don't foresee a huge difference next time out although the makeup of key characters may well change.
I think that the social democrats will do very well in the next election and could well overtake Labour as long as their candidates are not rats deserting the toxic twin parties.
 

wombat

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It will be interesting to see the approach to the budget when the Dail returns. I suspect there will be lots of demands and posing for the TV cameras followed by much hyped negotiations "going to the wire" between FF & FG before agreement is reached.
 

wombat

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I think that the social democrats will do very well in the next election and could well overtake Labour as long as their candidates are not rats deserting the toxic twin parties.
They have yet to show signs that they are more than a label of convenience for 3 independent TDs.
 


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