The fascination with Adolf Hitler.

hiding behind a poster

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So Eisenhower was wrong when he said "the Japanese were ready to surrender and we didn’t have to hit them with that awful thing."
I think he was referring to the second bomb, not the first one.

All racism claims to be based on "cold hard evidence" in one way or another.
Sorry, but where are you getting racism from? Read about the island war in the Pacific - the Japanese were absolutely ferocious fighters, and it took far greater superiority in equipment and men to beat them on each island than had been expected.

What in the name of God is racist about that?
 


Spacewagon

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No I wouldn't. You see war is hell and the Japanese started it. At least that is the view of most sensible people - other than a small minority of US hating conspiracy theorists.

So now, because I question your view of history, I am a US hating conspiracy theorist?

Hmm, lets broaden the "war is hell and the Japanese started it" notion.

So, the bombing of the Twin Towers on 9/11 is justifiable, because the US invaded Iraq? That ok ?
 

L'Chaim

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I'd love to be able to travel back in time to the day before he killed himself and just ask him one question - "Why?"
 

Spacewagon

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Sorry, but where are you getting racism from? Read about the island war in the Pacific - the Japanese were absolutely ferocious fighters, and it took far greater superiority in equipment and men to beat them on each island than had been expected.
That may be so. In fact, it was so. But, by the time the war in the Pacific had finished, and American had effective control of the Home Islands of Japan, there was no need whatsoever to drop the atomic bombs, nor was their any indication that the Japanese had intended fighting to the last man. As the poster above stated, this was the justification put forward afterwards, for the Americans "swinging their big mickey" at the Russians in advance of post War negotiations, just as the bombing of Dresden was by the British.

There was no military need whatsoever to drop the atomic bombs.

In fact, what might be more instructive to assess, would be how America dealt with the Japanese after the war had finished, and how the practically allowed the exact same regime which had carried out the war, to continue when the war was over.

Why wasn't Hirohito executed in a war crimes tribunal ?

Why was Tojo made the fall guy ?

Do 99% of people even know who Tojo was ?

History is a very complex thing, and people need to realise and understand, that the vast majority of "recieved history" that they get in school, is no more than sanitised propoganda designed for the continuation of a world view propgated by the winners. Over and over again, in threads like these, where there might actually be some worthwhile contributions for learned and inquisitive posters, the debate gets dragged down to the same tired old wisdoms, because frankly people either don't know what they are talking about, or are too lazy to open their minds to anything other than the force fed pap they have been subjected to all their lives.
 

Spacewagon

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I'd love to be able to travel back in time to the day before he killed himself and just ask him one question - "Why?"
Read Mein Kampf. Above most people in history, Hitler wrote a very extensive manifesto of what he wished to achieve, long before he ended up in a position to carry it out.
 

L'Chaim

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Read Mein Kampf. Above most people in history, Hitler wrote a very extensive manifesto of what he wished to achieve, long before he ended up in a position to carry it out.
Does that book lay out his plans for the final solution? Does it lay out his plans for the work camps and concentration camps? Does it explain why Jews had to lose everything, even their hair? Does it explain why they had to become numbers and not people?
 

Lao-Tse

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I'm sure there's something morbid in the fixation of some people with Nazism. Ian Kershaw
noted "The Nazis are big business. Stick a swastika on something and it will sell".
 

the_beat

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That may be so. In fact, it was so. But, by the time the war in the Pacific had finished, and American had effective control of the Home Islands of Japan, there was no need whatsoever to drop the atomic bombs, nor was their any indication that the Japanese had intended fighting to the last man. As the poster above stated, this was the justification put forward afterwards, for the Americans "swinging their big mickey" at the Russians in advance of post War negotiations, just as the bombing of Dresden was by the British.

There was no military need whatsoever to drop the atomic bombs.

In fact, what might be more instructive to assess, would be how America dealt with the Japanese after the war had finished, and how the practically allowed the exact same regime which had carried out the war, to continue when the war was over.

Why wasn't Hirohito executed in a war crimes tribunal ?

Why was Tojo made the fall guy ?

Do 99% of people even know who Tojo was ?

History is a very complex thing, and people need to realise and understand, that the vast majority of "recieved history" that they get in school, is no more than sanitised propoganda designed for the continuation of a world view propgated by the winners. Over and over again, in threads like these, where there might actually be some worthwhile contributions for learned and inquisitive posters, the debate gets dragged down to the same tired old wisdoms, because frankly people either don't know what they are talking about, or are too lazy to open their minds to anything other than the force fed pap they have been subjected to all their lives.
Great post.
 

greenporcupine

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L' Chaim,
I am sorry but am getting a bit fed up with the Jewish victim thing.
I think one of the reasons is that they are totally unaware that others have suffered as much in history
and seem to think that they are completetly unique in history.
Since there are monuments unlimited,days for the Holocaust,compulsory,we have all sufferd for the Jewish people .
When will you ever think of others who have suffered ,or is it that since they are not the Chosen People' they are not important ?
.
I have until recently had a prediliction for your peoples ,hopefully hebrews [not the new ones]
but am beginning to get fed up with the wallowing.
 

L'Chaim

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L' Chaim,
I am sorry but am getting a bit fed up with the Jewish victim thing.
I think one of the reasons is that they are totally unaware that others have suffered as much in history
and seem to think that they are completetly unique in history.
Since there are monuments unlimited,days for the Holocaust,compulsory,we have all sufferd for the Jewish people .
When will you ever think of others who have suffered ,or is it that since they are not the Chosen People' they are not important ?
.
I have until recently had a prediliction for your peoples ,hopefully hebrews [not the new ones]
but am beginning to get fed up with the wallowing.
It's hardly the fault of the Jews that they were the principle target of the Nazis for annihilation. And it's hardly the fault of Jews that other groups who suffered don't highlight it. As I said in another thread, you watch how nations or political parties or groups or individuals treat Jews and you will have a deadly accurate picture of their intentions towards others. I understand that it's not just Jews, but Jews were the first.
 

Truth.ie

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I'd love to be able to travel back in time to the day before he killed himself and just ask him one question - "Why?"
It all goes back to the Treaty of Versailles which locked Germany into decades, and maybe generations of extreme poverty as they were forced to act as workhorses for Britain, France and the U.S for war reparations.
Pre Hitler tens of thousands on WW1 widows were forced into prostitution just to survive.
It was an untenable position, and it was only a matter of time someone like Hitler popped up.
 
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It all goes back to the Treaty of Versailles which locked Germany into decades, and maybe generations of extreme poverty as they were forced to act as workhorses for Britain, France and the U.S for war reparations.
Pre Hitler tens of thousands on WW1 widows were forced into prostitution just to survive.
It was an untenable position, and it was only a matter of time someone like Hitler popped up.
Some even argue it goes back further than that & was predestined in the mists of Germany's past.

Sonderweg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Fatso64

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I'd love to be able to travel back in time to the day before he killed himself and just ask him one question - "Why?"
The day before he dies, and you have a time machine? Maybe a few years before and less chat!
 

Spacewagon

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Does that book lay out his plans for the final solution? Does it lay out his plans for the work camps and concentration camps? Does it explain why Jews had to lose everything, even their hair? Does it explain why they had to become numbers and not people?
No L'Chaim, it doesn't lay out the plans for the Final Solution in detail, but then you would hardly have expected it to. It laid out the feelings of Hitler towards the Jewish people, and why he felt that they were a blot on mankind. He was hardly the first to feel like that throughout history.

And, just in case you think otherwise, I do not in any way condone what Hitler did, and find what he did to be reprehensible. However, history is as it is, and should be reported accurately or not at all. Otherwise it is propaganda, and likely to be subverted to suit other dangerous agendas.

And, just to add, the notion of a person becoming a number, is widespread in society, especially in any institutional environment. It is done to soldiers, prisoners etc, as a means of de-humanisation, and is done in every society, not just in Nazi Germany.
 

Spacewagon

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I am not sure which of us is more confused. I think you may be getting the time-line mixed up.
You are aware that the US invaded Iraq in the early 1990's ? Remember, the whole, we're saving little Kuwait thing. Oh, and making sure Saddam gets his story regarding OPEC and rising oil prices back into line ?
 

L'Chaim

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No L'Chaim, it doesn't lay out the plans for the Final Solution in detail, but then you would hardly have expected it to. It laid out the feelings of Hitler towards the Jewish people, and why he felt that they were a blot on mankind. He was hardly the first to feel like that throughout history.

.
Oh antisemitism on his part I know about. But I'd be fascinated to know why he took it to the extremes he did
 

Trampas

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You are aware that the US invaded Iraq in the early 1990's ? Remember, the whole, we're saving little Kuwait thing. Oh, and making sure Saddam gets his story regarding OPEC and rising oil prices back into line ?

They most certainly did not "invade Iraq" in any accepted sense of that term. What they did do was harass the retreating Iraqi army as it began to make its way home.
 


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