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The Frontline The Irish Property Council --My postman has an apartment in Bulgaria


Socratus O' Pericles

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When I was growing up in small town in middle Ireland the idea that the Postman would have apartment in Bulgaria was so far off the spectrum as to be inconceivable.

Now all sorts of people are owners of property, the list includes not just postmen but guards, doctors, It specialists, nurses and teachers as well.

Now that their bigger brothers have been sorted by NAMA these “smaller” property investors too want a bailout-- tax incentives and an understanding attitude from the banks would be a good start according to them.

Their mood was gloomy last night as they spoke of suicide, 100,000 skilled personnel being "lost" to the economy, of a depression so deep we might not come out of it for a generation

They demurred at the idea they might be greedy.

Now as I understand capitalism -profit is the extra reward for enterprise i.e. risk taking/investment -the bigger the risk the greater the reward for Enterprise but subject to the understanding that you can loose. Surely it is a form of capitalism “lite” if there is no penalty when risk doesn't pay off and the nanny always steps in to pick up the pieces, that is a one way bet that doesn’t seem to be coming off.

I think this depression will be long and deep.

BTW Bank of Ireland shares are €1.24 today, how long before the banks are Nationalised?
 


True Republican

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When I was growing up in small town in middle Ireland the idea that the Postman would have apartment in Bulgaria was so far off the spectrum as to be inconceivable.

Now all sorts of people are owners of property, the list includes not just postmen but guards, doctors, It specialists, nurses and teachers as well.

Now that their bigger brothers have been sorted by NAMA these “smaller” property investors too want a bailout-- tax incentives and an understanding attitude from the banks would be a good start according to them.

Their mood was gloomy last night as they spoke of suicide, 100,000 skilled personnel being "lost" to the economy, of a depression so deep we might not come out of it for a generation

They demurred at the idea they might be greedy.

Now as I understand capitalism -profit is the extra reward for enterprise i.e. risk taking/investment -the bigger the risk the greater the reward for Enterprise but subject to the understanding that you can loose. Surely it is a form of capitalism “lite” if there is no penalty when risk doesn't pay off and the nanny always steps in to pick up the pieces, that is a one way bet that doesn’t seem to be coming off.

I think this depression will be long and deep.

BTW Bank of Ireland shares are €1.24 today, how long before the banks are Nationalised?
Well if the government continues to increase taxes then it will be a long depression similar to the depression that Hoover and FDR caused in 1930's America.
 

Fish

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Well if the government continues to increase taxes then it will be a long depression similar to the depression that Hoover and FDR caused in 1930's America.
Both of these are pretty much a given at this stage!

I would replace the Hoover and FDR comparison though with a more suitably apt description in our contemporary case of depression. In comparison with the leaders in that particular time period (20's+30's) our present geniuses fall somewhere between Laurel and Hardy and Al Capone.

Can someone other than the usual vested interests, govt hacks and spin merchants point out where the recovery is going to come from, while being cognisant of the fact that the economy is still contracting and will contract more into the forseeable future, which is in no small part due to being bled dry by the unholy trinity of FF policy the Banks and NAMA?

I'm generally an optimistic person who looks at angles in an attempt to see the upside rather than the downside of issues but I have been saying for sometime my belief that we are in for a long Japanese style crash. The actions of the insiders up to this point has just reinforced that belief.

The blatant shovelling of OUR money with reckless abandon into zombie banking institutions is criminal IMO. The much more important question which has never been answered in a logical coherent way (though I think we all know) is; WHY? The blatant pushing of the incumbents agenda forward without any open examination or cognisance of the causes the scandal is breathtaking in it's arrogance and stinks to it's core. The fact that no sanction has yet been brought to bare on any of the main architechts of the obvious criminal behaviour engaged in, whilst not surprising in this nepotistic cess pool is proof positive that the culture that gave us CJH, CC kiddie fidlers cover ups and a lytanny of other nod wink and doff your cap type episodes towards "Our Betters" as Martin Manseragh might say is still very much alive.

So now the new watchword is competitiveness. I love the way that the same clowns that allowed the country to become their property chums wild west to the absolute destruction of said competitiveness talk of gritting our teeth and donning the green jersey for our national lean project. Someone better tell them that many of the FDI industries we pitch for are going through major consolidations and cost cutting excercises in their own right so major expansions will be in much shorter supply "Going Forward"

The seeds of this mire we find ourselves in were sown in the late 90's and early 00's and it will take a long time for this to be worked through the system. That said as an optimist I am open to an unbaised argument to the contrary.
 
Last edited:

jackbetal

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Now all sorts of people are owners of property, the list includes not just postmen but guards, doctors, It specialists, nurses and teachers as well.

Now that their bigger brothers have been sorted by NAMA these “smaller” property investors too want a bailout-- tax incentives and an understanding attitude from the banks would be a good start according to them.

Their mood was gloomy last night as they spoke of suicide, 100,000 skilled personnel being "lost" to the economy, of a depression so deep we might not come out of it for a generation

They demurred at the idea they might be greedy.
The "bigger brothers" were the ones who had political sway and did the damage whilst the smaller investors like the "postmen, guards, doctors, It specialists, nurses and teachers" and maybe less well off professions and working class people were the ones who thought they might invest in the future for their familes. So why shouldn't they now seek recompense for being cheated by their government? Would you think if a person investing in a little local business should feel aggrieved if after beginning they were extorted until they brike by the government just because the large multi nationals played around, lost billions and now have the government cover their losses? Would this small little local businessman be considered "greedy"??
 

Thac0man

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Well if the government continues to increase taxes then it will be a long depression similar to the depression that Hoover and FDR caused in 1930's America.
We basically need to start derailing some gravy trains and slaughtering some sacred cows, that should see us through.
 

shiel

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Why is it that threads like this, which are well written, thoughtful and try to deal with the problems objectively, get so few contributions?

At the same time the ones that indulge in personal abuse, are obviously set up to push a specific agenda and bully those who try to deal with the issues, get loads of contributions.

On this topic I recommend an article by people who were involved at the time of the disorderly default in Argentina in today's Indo.
 

Telemachus

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The "bigger brothers" were the ones who had political sway and did the damage whilst the smaller investors like the "postmen, guards, doctors, It specialists, nurses and teachers" and maybe less well off professions and working class people were the ones who thought they might invest in the future for their familes. So why shouldn't they now seek recompense for being cheated by their government? Would you think if a person investing in a little local business should feel aggrieved if after beginning they were extorted until they brike by the government just because the large multi nationals played around, lost billions and now have the government cover their losses? Would this small little local businessman be considered "greedy"??
Investing in the future of your family involved speculative inventments in the eastern european property market?

You should have your home taken off you if you cant pay the bills. You can rent like me then.
 

jackbetal

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Investing in the future of your family involved speculative inventments in the eastern european property market?

You should have your home taken off you if you cant pay the bills. You can rent like me then.
Great reply. Intelligent and well thought out. really tackels the issue. Not just begrudging at all.
 

Mossy Heneberry

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The "bigger brothers" were the ones who had political sway and did the damage whilst the smaller investors like the "postmen, guards, doctors, It specialists, nurses and teachers" and maybe less well off professions and working class people were the ones who thought they might invest in the future for their familes. So why shouldn't they now seek recompense for being cheated by their taxpayer? Would you think if a person investing in a little local business should feel aggrieved if after beginning they were extorted until they brike by the government just because the large multi nationals played around, lost billions and now have the government cover their losses? Would this small little local businessman be considered "greedy"??
I've fixed that for you.

No thank you.
 

wexfordman

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Investing in the future of your family involved speculative inventments in the eastern european property market?

You should have your home taken off you if you cant pay the bills. You can rent like me then.
Spot on!!
 

sking81

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Great reply. Intelligent and well thought out. really tackels the issue. Not just begrudging at all.
Actually it was, and not the begrudging part. It pretty much sums up 'true' Capitalisms solution to the problem. I'd agree completely (on the premise that bankruptcy laws were updated so the speculators arent completely crippled for life by the dept they have taken on).
 

jackbetal

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Actually it was, and not the begrudging part. It pretty much sums up 'true' Capitalisms solution to the problem. I'd agree completely (on the premise that bankruptcy laws were updated so the speculators arent completely crippled for life by the dept they have taken on).
There are property investors out there who broke their balls to keep property on the market for people to rent. They held up their side of the bargain so why should they now be penalised because the country is after screwing them over. If it was a small shopkeeper who walked his a rse off to get a business off the ground and held up his side of the bargain then would you feel he deserves recompense now if the government was screwing him over??
 

Radix

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People generally seem to give out about a system that allows 'a postman' own an appartment in Bulgaria or some other 'exotic' location, but the same system allows most of these people to enjoy a level of debt forgiveness when the 'system' temporarily gets sick.

Whatever misgivings we can have about the capitalist 'system', surely it is the least worst one out there, if we are at all fair, given the alternatives.
 

hmmm

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If it was a small shopkeeper who walked his a rse off to get a business off the ground and held up his side of the bargain then would you feel he deserves recompense now if the government was screwing him over??
The government doesn't compensate people when their businesses fail, government provides a social welfare safety net only. That's why it is known as risk-taking. Besides, lots of people have lost money on all their investments over the past 4 or so years, why are property investors so special that the taxpayer should be forced to compensate them.
 

Dub guy

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There are property investors out there who broke their balls to keep property on the market for people to rent. They held up their side of the bargain so why should they now be penalised because the country is after screwing them over. If it was a small shopkeeper who walked his a rse off to get a business off the ground and held up his side of the bargain then would you feel he deserves recompense now if the government was screwing him over??
Get over yourself!! Are you suggesting these investors bought property to rent out to provide some ''public service'' out of the goodness of their hearts? Give me a break! There was a culture of greed, let's call a spade a spade here. People saw others make a killing with capital appreciation on houses & soaring rental income, with tax incentive to boot & they wanted a piece of the action. Those of us who said it was a bubble were sneered at. Well sorry, that's how the cookie crumbles you take the risk, it doesn't pay off tough! Do I expect to be bailed out for losses I made on the stock market in the past decade? No. The same should apply to those who bought property to rent out. They made their own choices & mistakes, they were not ''screwed over'' by the country, what a childish comment.
 

jackbetal

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The government doesn't compensate people when their businesses fail, government provides a social welfare safety net only. That's why it is known as risk-taking. Besides, lots of people have lost money on all their investments over the past 4 or so years, why are property investors so special that the taxpayer should be forced to compensate them.
When it was the government who directly screwed these people over. The are curretly taxing them out of the market and it is completely the governments fault that there was a property market which crashed. They inflated it and then left it implode. You cannot blame small time investors for not macro managing the economy.
 

jackbetal

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Get over yourself!! Are you suggesting these investors bought property to rent out to provide some ''public service'' out of the goodness of their hearts? Give me a break! There was a culture of greed, let's call a spade a spade here.

Childish?? Don't be an idiot please. Who ever said that they were investing in property out of the "goodness of their heart"?? The same way any small little business starts. They want to make a better life for themselves and their family. Are all these little business's greedy?? Because someone dares to want something better in life does that make then greedy?? Where is greed in all this?? And of course if any other little business starts and fails through their own fault then they do not deserve compensation. Unless of course they were rightly screwed like these little people.
 

Mossy Heneberry

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When it was the government who directly screwed these people over. The are curretly taxing them out of the market and it is completely the governments fault that there was a property market which crashed. They inflated it and then left it implode. You cannot blame small time investors for not macro managing the economy.
And it was the very same government that encouraged property speculation with tax incentives and subsidies. Bigger fools them, to rely on the government and its quick rich schemes.

Granted most of the 'fools' are ordinary Joe Soaps but reality doesn't like to be mocked.
 

jackbetal

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And it was the very same government that encouraged property speculation with tax incentives and subsidies. Bigger fools them, to rely on the government and its quick rich schemes.

Granted most of the 'fools' are ordinary Joe Soaps but reality doesn't like to be mocked.
I can't disagree with any of this. The government drove this thing on. They were the ones who the small time investors put their trust in. Small time investors should not have to factor in whether their government is going to completely destroy the economy. It is true that many are loosing in this economy but no one is loosing to the same degree as these small time investors. The government get paid the big mmoney they do to macro manage. They failed big time. Actually bigger than any other government ever in modern history of Western governments. And there answer to it then was to look after those big time investors who were most culpable in this catastrophe and let the small ordinary joes hang out to dry. Never mind those poor people who are screwed now for just wanting to but a little family home for themselves and their familes.
 

spidermom

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I remember it well...our "independant financial advisor" for Hubbys private pension sitting at our kitchen table telling us how "SERIOUSLY UNDER BORROWED" we were!.We could raise a lot of equity on our family home and "INVEST" in property..and with the tax incentives it would COST US NOTHING!!...YEP we could have 1 or 2 investment properties for NO cost.

Thanks be to Our particular God that we had the sense to know that there ain't nowt for nowt...but no thanks to the money guru!!
 

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