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The Gathering - A hungry feelin' came o'er dem stealin' - Irish Prison Records 1790-1924


cathalbrugha

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Joined
Jun 29, 2011
Messages
9,215
Role Of Individual-Prisoner
Event-Prison
Event Date-1854
Event Place-Wexford
Residence-Gorey
Age-18
Est. Birth Year-1836
Prison-Wexford
Offence-Stealing Apples
Item-1


Brian Donovan, Director of findmypast.ie, has commented: “These records provide an invaluable resource for anyone tracing their Irish ancestors, as during the period covered almost every household in Ireland had a convict in their family. These records provide such a wealth of information that they are sure to shock and surprise almost anyone looking for the missing links in their Irish family tree.”

With the Gathering almost upon us, it's an amazing fact of history that almost every Irish person the world over have in fact descended from a Class of Felons.. "Almost every household in Ireland had a convict in their family" - Wow. One would wonder what type of Just us system would imprison a human being for stealing an apple, as above.. Or Jail a man for working as in the case of a Finglas man John Cunningham, below, for washing a car.. Or simply coz they didn't like the look of you..

"The records are full of individuals who were arrested for very minor offences, for example a record from the Cork City Gaol Court Book lists an arrest for Giles O’Sullivan (26), with no education and no previous convictions, on the 30th of March 1848 for being “a dangerous and suspicious character”. Other examples of the heavy hand of the law can be seen in the case of John Cunningham from Finglas (21) who was arrested for “Washing a car on a thoroughfare” and young Christopher Doyle (14) arrested “for being an idle, disorderly rogue and vagabond”.
 
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merle haggard

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dublins special criminal court today continues to convict people for things like having alarm clocks in their house, joke t shirts purchased in the ilac centre, republican calendars etc. At one stage an abandoned wooden chair leg in a pensioners back garden was accepted by 3 judges to actually be a "grenade part" . When it was argued it could conceivably be stuck onto a grenade . The elderly man was then jailed for years in maximum security . This is all post 1998

plus ca change . Therell be a lot more families with felons in the future ubtil we have an accountable justice and policing system.
 

cathalbrugha

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dublins special criminal court today continues to convict people for things like having alarm clocks in their house, joke t shirts purchased in the ilac centre, republican calendars etc. At one stage an abandoned wooden chair leg in a pensioners back garden was accepted by 3 judges to actually be a "grenade part" . When it was argued it could conceivably be stuck onto a grenade . The elderly man was then jailed for years in maximum security . This is all post 1998

plus ca change . Therell be a lot more families with felons in the future ubtil we have an accountable justice and policing system.
"If you can't do the Time-Don't do the Crime" - Not all crime is excusable.. But 1 apple? Idleness? Working?

I know of one case where a guy who'd just lost his father, and tried to commit suicide, was sent to prison for stealing 1 CD. And just to rub salt into the wound they put him in solitary confinement.. I also know of another guy, who spent 5 weeks on Hunger Strike in the late 1990s, for the crime of removing a British Flag off a Flag-Pole.. Never done anything else wrong in his life.. A bit over OTT imho to put him in with the 'ODCs', for want of a better word.. As Imho, it was deliberate.. Political Policing in the South.. Not as bad as the Black North, but certainly Political Policing nonetheless.. The imprisonment of Éirígís Stephen Murney is a classic example of jailing people for little or nothing, a scare tactic, from Éirígís website -

Stephen was arrested on November 28th following a raid on his home by Britain’s paramilitary police. Three days later Stephen was charged with a number of ‘offences’ including that of ‘collecting and distributing information likely to be of use to terrorists’ and ‘possession of articles likely to be of use to terrorists’. The Bail conditions were almost comical, if it wasn't for the fact that he has kids who didn't have a daddy on xmas morning -


A ban on Stephen entering the city of Newry (Stephen lives in Newry with his partner and their young son)
A requirement that Stephen reside at a specified address some miles from Newry
A requirement for Stephen to wear an electronic tagging device at all times
A requirement for Stephen to report daily to Newtonhamilton PSNI barracks

The 'articles' amounted to 'Political Literature'. Imho, they're actually 'baiting' Republicans.
 

merle haggard

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Nov 18, 2005
Messages
5,497
. Political Policing in the South.. Not as bad as the Black North,.
As a seasoned observer in the Dublin SCC over the years Id say its worse in the south . A lot worse. While a judge in the north might remand you over a chair leg in your garden its unlikely theyd convict a pensioner these days . Dublin convicts no matter how spurious the grounds, virtually every time . As a state its inherently more corrupt than the north .
 

pippakin

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Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
9,658
Role Of Individual-Prisoner
Event-Prison
Event Date-1854
Event Place-Wexford
Residence-Gorey
Age-18
Est. Birth Year-1836
Prison-Wexford
Offence-Stealing Apples
Item-1


Brian Donovan, Director of findmypast.ie, has commented: “These records provide an invaluable resource for anyone tracing their Irish ancestors, as during the period covered almost every household in Ireland had a convict in their family. These records provide such a wealth of information that they are sure to shock and surprise almost anyone looking for the missing links in their Irish family tree.”

With the Gathering almost upon us, it's an amazing fact of history that almost every Irish person the world over have in fact descended from a Class of Felons.. "Almost every household in Ireland had a convict in their family" - Wow. One would wonder what type of Just us system would imprison a human being for stealing an apple, as above.. Or Jail a man for working as in the case of a Finglas man John Cunningham, below, for washing a car.. Or simply coz they didn't like the look of you..

"The records are full of individuals who were arrested for very minor offences, for example a record from the Cork City Gaol Court Book lists an arrest for Giles O’Sullivan (26), with no education and no previous convictions, on the 30th of March 1848 for being “a dangerous and suspicious character”. Other examples of the heavy hand of the law can be seen in the case of John Cunningham from Finglas (21) who was arrested for “Washing a car on a thoroughfare” and young Christopher Doyle (14) arrested “for being an idle, disorderly rogue and vagabond”.
What surprised me, though perhaps it shouldn't have, is how little independence changed us.
 

cathalbrugha

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What surprised me, though perhaps it shouldn't have, is how little independence changed us.
It's hard to teach an old dogg new trickspetunia

Another way of looking at things is that according to the historian Cecil-Woodham Smith we're all descended from Royalty, as the seanfhocail says 'S Rioghal Mo Dhream - Royal Is My Race..

The Great Hunger - Cecil-Woodham Smith

"Until the famine, it was by no means uncommon for poor peasants in mud cabins bequeathing estates which had long ago been confiscated from their forefathers, and that figure of fun in Victorian days, the Irish Beggar who claimed to be descended from kings, was often speaking the truth. 'I am descended from perhaps as good a family as any I address, though now destitute of means' runs a letter imploring assistance in the Distress papers"
 

james5001

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Does it cost anything to sign up?
 

Red_93

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dublins special criminal court today continues to convict people for things like having alarm clocks in their house, joke t shirts purchased in the ilac centre, republican calendars etc. At one stage an abandoned wooden chair leg in a pensioners back garden was accepted by 3 judges to actually be a "grenade part" . When it was argued it could conceivably be stuck onto a grenade . The elderly man was then jailed for years in maximum security . This is all post 1998

plus ca change . Therell be a lot more families with felons in the future ubtil we have an accountable justice and policing system.
I simply don't believe you. Have you got the names of any of these cases? Links? Anything like that?
 

james5001

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I wanted to look up a specific name and they ask you to sign up.
 

pippakin

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Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
9,658
It's hard to teach an old dogg new trickspetunia

Another way of looking at things is that according to the historian Cecil-Woodham Smith we're all descended from Royalty, as the seanfhocail says 'S Rioghal Mo Dhream - Royal Is My Race..

The Great Hunger - Cecil-Woodham Smith

"Until the famine, it was by no means uncommon for poor peasants in mud cabins bequeathing estates which had long ago been confiscated from their forefathers, and that figure of fun in Victorian days, the Irish Beggar who claimed to be descended from kings, was often speaking the truth. 'I am descended from perhaps as good a family as any I address, though now destitute of means' runs a letter imploring assistance in the Distress papers"
How you must have thought about that little swipe! Me? I learn something or more every day. If we could go back far enough wouldn't we all be related to each other.

Ireland's History - Early Irish Tribes, Septs and Clans (page 2)

I think what the prison records may show if we studied them properly is how local our interpretation of the law was and to some extent still is.
 

cathalbrugha

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Messages
9,215
I simply don't believe you. Have you got the names of any of these cases? Links? Anything like that?
Even before 1998 that type of Political Policing was going on.. If you look back as far as 1993 you'll even find Mainstream Media reports & pictures of any type of dissent being suppressed.. One picture shows a man at a rally holding a picture up of four kids who were killed by plastic bullets being battered by the Gardaí and hauled away.. That's in the Sunday Tribune July-11-1993.. Nothing that wasn't 'on-song' with the 'peace-process' narrative was going to be tolerated, in any shape or form.. Not even peaceful protests..
 
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parentheses

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Aug 26, 2011
Messages
13,832
Do the records give any indication of what prison mortality was like?

I've read that the death rate in Spike Island in the mid 19th century was considerably worse than in Stalin's gulags.
 

cathalbrugha

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Joined
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Messages
9,215
How you must have thought about that little swipe! Me? I learn something or more every day. If we could go back far enough wouldn't we all be related to each other.
Ireland's History - Early Irish Tribes, Septs and Clans (page 2)

I think what the prison records may show if we studied them properly is how local our interpretation of the law was and to some extent still is.
Unfortunately, that's probably the case.. Cheers for the link.. Imho, I think the 'idea' of Irish Royalty was different in some respects, insofar, as Connolly identified the 'Chief' as little more than a spokesperson for the Clann - Erin's Hope - The End & The Means..

“Before the time of the conquest, the Irish people knew nothing of absolute property in land. The land belonged to the entire sept; the chief was little more than the managing member of the association. The feudal idea which came in with the conquest was associated with foreign dominion, and has never to this day been recognised by the moral sentiment of the people.”
 

pinemartin

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Messages
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I also know of another guy, who spent 5 weeks on Hunger Strike in the late 1990s, for the crime of removing a British Flag off a Flag-Pole.. Never done anything else wrong in his life.
Whats wrong with removing a flag?
 

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