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The Government's handling of special needs education cases.


davidcameron

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State's Yes agenda geared to rid children of real rights - The Irish Times - Wed, Nov 07, 2012

When the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Bill was released in 2003, our suspicions were confirmed.

In the proposed law, the State was not going to commit itself to giving children the constitutional rights that they had established beyond a doubt in the courts. Rather, government was blatantly seeking to substitute these real rights for “rights” they could manipulate and control.

In the Bill, the State took on the role of the parent. It alone would decide what a child needed through experts on its payroll and then decide whether or not the child would get the services called for in their assessment.
Why does the Government fight tooth-and-nail to avoid contributing to the education of children who have special needs? Many ministers are themselves parents. Have they no conscience?

The "children's rights" amendment would delete Article 42.5 and would contain the phrase "as far as practicable". That means that the Government is disregarding children who have special needs.
 
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Half Nelson

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You may want to drop the bit in italics if you want this thread to get off the ground.
 

Half Nelson

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And to complete the picture we have the same type of cross-party, media, academic and State-funded charity cheerleaders to make the whole fraud credible and ensure its success.
Ouch!

There is a sneaking suspicion abroad that the reason certain charities are pushing the referendum is because, if passed, it will force the government to allocate funding to 'child welfare charities' and eventually we will see the equivalent of what they have in the UK - a child-welfare industry, constantly needing raw material, by whatever means.
 

BlackLion

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Thankfully there is very few special needs kids in Ireland and in turn very little special needs parents. The government cuts their pay cause they are not that many voters and that money will go towards does who could vote for FG/Lab.
 

Grey Area

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I would further argue that Article 42.5 as it stands has has produced more childrens rights than any other article in the Constitution. It also has the potential to establish more rights for children in the future. I contend that the State in it's desire to remove it are engaged in selling a negative as a positive - surely not? See below and decide for yourself.

The Constitutional Review Group Report in 1996 highlighted how Article 42.5 helped establish that the child is entitled to all of the personal rights identified in Articles 40, 41, 42, 43 & 44.

"The Supreme Court returned to this issue in In re Article 26 and the Adoption (No 2) Bill 1987 [1989] IR 656. In this reference to the Supreme Court to test the constitutionality of the Bill, the court was required to construe Article 42.5 and in doing so stated that the rights of a child are not limited to those contained in Article 41 and 42 but include the rights referred to in Articles 40, 43 and 44. Articles 40 – 44

This important statement confirms that the child is entitled to all of the personal rights identified in Article 40."
http://www.constitution.ie/reports/crg.pdf

This critique of the amendment and the possible implications of the wording - Gerry Fahey (GerryFahey) on Scribd | Scribd .

The analysis seems to suggest that it is likely to bring about a fundamental change in Irish society that is much broader in scope than the simplistic children’s ‘rights’ rhetoric of some commentators suggests.

It also points out that parents are explicitly excluded from taking action against the State even when the State gets it wrong in any individual case arising out of intervention by the State.

Finally, and anomalously, this clause explicitly excludes proceedings brought against the state from the list of proceedings that are to have the BIC as the paramount consideration. In fact, the state is one of the primary offenders in relation to the welfare of children. This clause seeks to insulate them from litigation that could otherwise be taken
 
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nonpartyboy

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Ouch!

There is a sneaking suspicion abroad that the reason certain charities are pushing the referendum is because, if passed, it will force the government to allocate funding to 'child welfare charities' and eventually we will see the equivalent of what they have in the UK - a child-welfare industry, constantly needing raw material, by whatever means.
Well we already have a poverty industry, immigration/migrant rights industry, whatever your having yourself industry, so why not ?

The germans are paying anyway.............
 

davidcameron

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Thankfully there is very few special needs kids in Ireland and in turn very little special needs parents. The government cuts their pay cause they are not that many voters and that money will go towards does who could vote for FG/Lab.
Child abuse has caused a public outcry since the Brendan Smyth case. Why would cutbacks to services that are provided to special needs children not do the same?
 

davidcameron

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It also points out that parents are explicitly excluded from taking action against the State even when the State gets it wrong in any individual case arising out of intervention by the State.
Could the children take legal action when they reach adulthood?

Could legal action still be taken by parents on the grounds of the right to family life under the European Court of Human Rights?
 

tigerben

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Although parents trying to do their best and get their children seen privately , it turns out in the long run a expensive mistake. The schools will only go on assessments from the HSE. Any resource / special needs come from a HSE report in the schools. Any parent that has a private assessment done won't get the resource in or out of school and will have to fund it , themselves. Also going into secondary school a new report has to go forward for resource / special needs for the child, there is no continuation or joined up thinking. The government loves paper work, keeps non front line workers in jobs!
 

BlackLion

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Child abuse has caused a public outcry since the Brendan Smyth case. Why would cutbacks to services that are provided to special needs children not do the same?
cause we are in a recession and while special needs kids funding is such a sad story. most people don;t care cause they are in money trouble themselves. I guarantee this will be a very small issue in the next GE. The opposition being weak that they are will use the issue but will toss it to one side if themselve were in power.
 

Watcher2

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Could the children take legal action when they reach adulthood?

Could legal action still be taken by parents on the grounds of the right to family life under the European Court of Human Rights?
The government, any government looks to short term issues and no longer than the next election. They certainly don't care if a law suit may pop up after a generation. They probably won't be in government at the time so they could care less.
 

Lassie

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State's Yes agenda geared to rid children of real rights - The Irish Times - Wed, Nov 07, 2012



Why does the Government fight tooth-and-nail to avoid contributing to the education of children who have special needs? Many ministers are themselves parents. Have they no conscience?

The "children's rights" amendment would delete Article 42.5 and would contain the phrase "as far as practicable". That means that the Government is disregarding children who have special needs.
Because they dont want them to have rights. Disability Authority of Ireland recently found in a study that there is a hardening of attitudes towards disabled children in particular amongst the population here. Niamh Breathneach said they were uneducatable which my sister in law who is a principal of a primary school said is rubbish, With the sna s etc all can work very well in a regular school. Under this change the government can slide out of their constitutional responsibilities towards disabled children which was upheld by the high court. The only protection these children have now is in that section of the constitution which they want to change. This children's rights Narrative has been carefully manipulated since the late nineties. So some children may be protected but in reality some are more 'deserving' of protection than others. Again the human rights of the most vulnerable/(defective in the opinion of the govt) will be left without rights and ultimately disregarded. The cycnicism of this is preposerous.Pure evil IMO. Divide and conquer very pure ayrian stuff. Yeuck. Vomit. The govt know attitudes are hardening so they'll get away with it. Look at the broadsides against disabled children in the last 4 budgets.
National Disability Authority survey finds public attitudes to disability in Ireland have become more negative in the last 5 years
Only 48% agree that children with sensory impairments should attend the same schools as those without disabilities. This is down from 58% in 2006.
Almost a quarter (24%) of respondents said they would object if a child with mental health difficulties was in the same class as their child. This is up from 21% in 2006.
Only 62% believe children with physical disabilities should attend the same schools as children without disabilities.
21% would object if a child with intellectual disability or autism was in the same class as their child. This is up significantly from 8% in 2006.
Hardening of attitudes towards people with disabilities
 

Grey Area

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Because they dont want them to have rights. Disability Authority of Ireland recently found in a study that there is a hardening of attitudes towards disabled children in particular amongst the population here. Niamh Breathneach said they were uneducatable which my sister in law who is a principal of a primary school said is rubbish, With the sna s etc all can work very well in a regular school. Under this change the government can slide out of their constitutional responsibilities towards disabled children which was upheld by the high court. The only protection these children have now is in that section of the constitution which they want to change. This children's rights Narrative has been carefully manipulated since the late nineties. So some children may be protected but in reality some are more 'deserving' of protection than others. Again the human rights of the most vulnerable/(defective in the opinion of the govt) will be left without rights and ultimately disregarded. The cycnicism of this is preposerous.Pure evil IMO. Divide and conquer very pure ayrian stuff. Yeuck. Vomit. The govt know attitudes are hardening so they'll get away with it. Look at the broadsides against disabled children in the last 4 budgets.
Hardening of attitudes towards people with disabilities
Tragically you are correct.
 

Lassie

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Tragically you are correct.
i am so sorry to have to write that. However i ve been observing the carefeully manipulated narrative and got suspicious.
We Irish people are a nation of story tellers combined with a desire to be liked and a conformist attitude.Thus we are so vulnerable to MSM narratives. This is absolutely monstrous. I literally cried when the truth dawned on me based on putting togerher the research over the past number of years.On whatever issue pleas wake up people to how vulnerable to 'a narrative/story/myth'.
 

patslatt

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Because they dont want them to have rights. Disability Authority of Ireland recently found in a study that there is a hardening of attitudes towards disabled children in particular amongst the population here. Niamh Breathneach said they were uneducatable which my sister in law who is a principal of a primary school said is rubbish, With the sna s etc all can work very well in a regular school. Under this change the government can slide out of their constitutional responsibilities towards disabled children which was upheld by the high court. The only protection these children have now is in that section of the constitution which they want to change. This children's rights Narrative has been carefully manipulated since the late nineties. So some children may be protected but in reality some are more 'deserving' of protection than others. Again the human rights of the most vulnerable/(defective in the opinion of the govt) will be left without rights and ultimately disregarded. The cycnicism of this is preposerous.Pure evil IMO. Divide and conquer very pure ayrian stuff. Yeuck. Vomit. The govt know attitudes are hardening so they'll get away with it. Look at the broadsides against disabled children in the last 4 budgets.
Hardening of attitudes towards people with disabilities
EDUCATIONAL TRACKING OF DISABLED CHILDREN
Maybe parents believe,rightly or wrongly,that catering to disabled children in mainstream classes lowers school standards.

Charles Murray,a leading sociologist,spoke recently about one of his children with spatial and visual disabilities who was kept in a mainstream class. He felt that mainstreaming children with mental disabilities reduced the pace of learning to that of the slowest learners;that his child suffered from the futility of never being able to keep up with the group; and would have been better off in a specialised tracking programme.
 
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patslatt

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I would further argue that Article 42.5 as it stands has has produced more childrens rights than any other article in the Constitution. It also has the potential to establish more rights for children in the future. I contend that the State in it's desire to remove it are engaged in selling a negative as a positive - surely not? See below and decide for yourself.

The Constitutional Review Group Report in 1996 highlighted how Article 42.5 helped establish that the child is entitled to all of the personal rights identified in Articles 40, 41, 42, 43 & 44.


http://www.constitution.ie/reports/crg.pdf

This critique of the amendment and the possible implications of the wording - Gerry Fahey (GerryFahey) on Scribd | Scribd .

The analysis seems to suggest that it is likely to bring about a fundamental change in Irish society that is much broader in scope than the simplistic children’s ‘rights’ rhetoric of some commentators suggests.

It also points out that parents are explicitly excluded from taking action against the State even when the State gets it wrong in any individual case arising out of intervention by the State.
CHILDREN RESCUED BY ADOPTION
From Fahey above:
"Therefore, the amendment
introduces a new dimension to law in that it provides explicitly and for the first time that chi
ldren’s rights are justiciable even
when the family unit is intact and fully functioning."

There are many thousands of children being abused or neglected by parents who are poor parents for a variety of reasons-addictions,mental problems,abusive etc. Many of those children would be better off adopted but apparently the constitution makes it difficult for foster parents to adopt them as the law permits the natural parents to keep reentering a child's life.

But even if the constitution is changed,chances are the government will continue to underfund social work. It takes very highly educated and intelligent social workers to make good decisions on these family cases. In the past they were so overloaded with cases that they weren't getting around to dealing with sexual abuse victims as reported on RTE TV.In the UK,cases of egregious bungling by social workers suggest that the people who enter the profession there are the least qualified for the job!
 

Lassie

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EDUCATIONAL TRACKING OF DISABLED CHILDREN
Maybe parents believe,rightly or wrongly,that catering to disabled children in mainstream classes lowers school standards.

Charles Murray,a leading sociologist,spoke recently about one of his children with spatial and visual disabilities who was kept in a mainstream class. He felt that mainstreaming children with mental disabilities reduced the pace of learning to that of the slowest learners;that his child suffered from the futility of never being able to keep up with the group; and would have been better off in a specialised tracking programme.
The experience on the ground e via my sister in law who is a princial is that once sna s and resources are in place there is NO problem and that's in a school which would have more than one age group in one class room. eg 1st 2nd class together. A slow influencing of the public to a scary facist agenda a la greec IMHO.
 

Lassie

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The two parts of the proposed wording of the referendum that bother me is the dropping of all children being cherished equally under the law from it's current form to T
he State recognises and affirms the natural and imprescriptible rights of all children and shall, as far as practicable, by its laws protect and vindicate those rights.
PRACTICABLE has all my alarm bells ringing . So if we cant afford housing for a child/ therapy for a child then it's not practicable. Also if children are not equal what does that mean? If you are disabled you're in trouble perhaps?
circuit court judge has said it is amazing how the HSE claims to have funding shortages and yet has no problem in paying €800 an hour to legal teams to represent it in court.

Hearing that HSE West had stopped funding services for a teenager with psychiatric and psychological difficulties who had attempted to rob several women in Galway City last year, Judge Gerard Griffin said: "It is something that amazes me in all my time on the bench that they [the HSE] seem to send in [to court] senior counsel, junior counsel, and solicitors who charge €800 an hour and then say they have no money."

He held up a letter signed by HSE area manager Catherine Cunningham, containing just one line acknowledging receipt of correspondence from a psychiatrist in the Central Mental Hospital who recommended the youth receive long-term, ongoing HSE residential care and psychiatric treatment. Judge Griffin said he was "entirely unhappy" with the reply from the HSE, which did not even address the psychiatrist’s recommendations.

Kevin Dinneen BL, defending, said the HSE had told him funding was not available for the treatment his client needed.
so this child's protection is not PRACTICABLE and the gov cannot be sued. I suppose he can be adopted and his adopted parents will pay privately.

Whenever i want to find out something i follow the money trail.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/judge-broke-hse-always-finds-800-an-hour--213460.html
 
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