The Government's proposal to update Irish Hate Speech laws



Buchaill Dana

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Are you telling me that the Gardai do the same to Irish people as was done to that man?
Yes.

If someone who was aquitted on a technicality of child rape applied for a job in a creche, the vetting would reference that.

What is happening in England is a pattern of low level behaviour is noted. Think Tadgh Gaeleach applying for a job with immigrants or a gay charity. Its not a vetting fail, its a note.
 

Buchaill Dana

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Can you not see the madness of recording someones transphobic hatred on a police database for doing nothing more than forgetting someones new name, making an honest mistake in gendering someone, or simply stating a biological fact?
Thats not whats happening. If someone tweets often enough and viciously enough anti Trans material that falls below a prosecution and they apply for a job in a Trans charity or advocacy group, they will be informed what they are dealing with.
 

Strawberry

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Thats not whats happening. If someone tweets often enough and viciously enough anti Trans material that falls below a prosecution and they apply for a job in a Trans charity or advocacy group, they will be informed what they are dealing with.
Viciously anti-trans material- like "huh?".

Give us an example of viciously anti-trans material that would warrant the Gardai damaging someone's career.
 

Strawberry

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Yes.

If someone who was aquitted on a technicality of child rape applied for a job in a creche, the vetting would reference that.

What is happening in England is a pattern of low level behaviour is noted. Think Tadgh Gaeleach applying for a job with immigrants or a gay charity. Its not a vetting fail, its a note.
Raping a child is not low level behaviour, and being acquitted on a technicality is vastly different to not committing a crime in the first place.

Tadgh Gaelach would get away with it, unless his name is actually Tadgh Gaelach. It's the innocent that will get punished here, not the guilty.
 

benroe

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Thats not whats happening. If someone tweets often enough and viciously enough anti Trans material that falls below a prosecution and they apply for a job in a Trans charity or advocacy group, they will be informed what they are dealing with.
But thats exactly whats happening, and even if it wasn't surely you can see how easily this could be abused.
Did you watch the video I posted, do you think Harry is a transphobe? a hate criminal?
 
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Buchaill Dana

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Raping a child is not low level behaviour, and being acquitted on a technicality is vastly different to not committing a crime in the first place.

Tadgh Gaelach would get away with it, unless his name is actually Tadgh Gaelach. It's the innocent that will get punished here, not the guilty.
Its someone with no criminal conviction who would pass vetting. Do you really think the Gardai would wave someone like that through?

If TG's posting came to Gardai attention, they have the tools to 'dox' him.

Its grow up time. If you spend your day abusing people online it might come back to haunt you.
 

Buchaill Dana

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Viciously anti-trans material- like "huh?".

Give us an example of viciously anti-trans material that would warrant the Gardai damaging someone's career.
Of course not.

You know exactly the headbanger stuff on the fringes. If they applied for a job in that world, you don't have an issue with a note on the vetting report? "Not a criminal, but his extreme anti trans social media output has come to our attention"
 

Strawberry

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Of course not.

You know exactly the headbanger stuff on the fringes. If they applied for a job in that world, you don't have an issue with a note on the vetting report? "Not a criminal, but his extreme anti trans social media output has come to our attention"
I have a massive issue with the Gardai including anything on a vetting report that isn't backed up by evidence, and apparently doesn't even have any clear definition.

Give me an example of viciously anti-trans material that would warrant the Gardai keeping it on file and telling a potential employer about.
 

Strawberry

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Its someone with no criminal conviction who would pass vetting. Do you really think the Gardai would wave someone like that through?

If TG's posting came to Gardai attention, they have the tools to 'dox' him.

Its grow up time. If you spend your day abusing people online it might come back to haunt you.
Who did Harry Miller spend his day abusing online?
 

benroe

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Of course not.

You know exactly the headbanger stuff on the fringes. If they applied for a job in that world, you don't have an issue with a note on the vetting report? "Not a criminal, but his extreme anti trans social media output has come to our attention"
This is the poem, written by a feminist and re-tweeted by Harry,

You’re a man.

Your breasts are made of silicone

Your vagina goes nowhere

And we can tell the difference

Even when you are not there

Your hormones are synthetic

And lets just cross this bridge

What you have you stupid man

Is male privilege.
Do you think someone should be reported for re-tweeting this?, do you think everyone who re-tweeted it should have their employment jeopardised?
 

cobhguy

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Thirty years ago I'd have said with absolute confidence that the person who wrote that didn't have a law degree (or indeed any degree). Today I wouldn't bet on it.

And that goes back to the problem I mentioned earlier about the calibre of judges.

If the bar for entry to the profession is so low and we have the twin problems of quotas and poor pay for judges, how can we hope for justice? In particular, how can we hope for justice when the case demands that a judge must have a reasonable understanding of language?
I always find it funny, when people try to pick apart someone's grammatical mistakes or written comprehension instead of their argument, especially when it's on an internet forum, where people give quick informal answers, and are typing
on a phone at 2am. I guess it makes the person feel better about themselves.
 

cobhguy

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No it wouldn't be recorded because you haven't offended any protected identity, if our hate speech laws are updated to UK standards then if you were to tell a trans person that he/she was not actually the sex they are transitioning into, then if anyone reported this as hate, not only would your statement be recorded as hate speech, but its very likely that your present boss would be notified.
Why would you go out of your way to offend someone like that.
 

cobhguy

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Viciously anti-trans material- like "huh?".

Give us an example of viciously anti-trans material that would warrant the Gardai damaging someone's career.
So if someone goes around posting anti-trans material,enough that someone feels justified to report them and that person is in charge of the care of a trans person. Are you saying their employers should not be notified or has no right to know.

Because that is the sort of limited circumstances we are talking about.
 

Buchaill Dana

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I have a massive issue with the Gardai including anything on a vetting report that isn't backed up by evidence, and apparently doesn't even have any clear definition.

Give me an example of viciously anti-trans material that would warrant the Gardai keeping it on file and telling a potential employer about.
You have failed the real world test here.

I know of a chap who defrauded his employer and the judge didn't impose a sentence or a record to allow him earn to pay it off. He got another job and repeated the trick. Do you think the second employer had a right to know he was a fraudster?
 

benroe

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Why would you go out of your way to offend someone like that.
I wouldn't, but if you and some trans people are offended by facts , then I say tough sh1t.
 

Buchaill Dana

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So if someone goes around posting anti-trans material,enough that someone feels justified to report them and that person is in charge of the care of a trans person. Are you saying their employers should not be notified or has no right to know.

Because that is the sort of limited circumstances we are talking about.
Exactly. The real world is intruding here. There are consequences to free speech, and if your volume and tone is enough to end up on a list and you apply to that sector, you are doing so for a reason, and employers have a right to know
 

Buchaill Dana

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I wouldn't, but if you and some trans people are offended by facts , then I say tough sh1t.
Fine. But if someone actively stalks Trans people and advocates on line over a long period of time to the point he is reported or comes to the cops attention, then applies to join a Trans lobby group, that group has a right to know or not?
 

cobhguy

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I wouldn't, but if you and some trans people are offended by facts , then I say tough sh1t.
So are you saying, people have the right to do that, now I am not talking about a legitimate debate with someone, I mean to randomly say to someone who identifies as transgender that they are not what they claim to be.
 

Half Nelson

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Exactly. The real world is intruding here. There are consequences to free speech, and if your volume and tone is enough to end up on a list and you apply to that sector, you are doing so for a reason, and employers have a right to know
This would be very sinister, esp. when we consider that the criteria for such lists is shrouded in secrecy and subjectivity.
Among the reasons for having laws is that laws are subject to scrutiny and accountability in their framing as well as in their implementation.
"Lists" are for circumventing due process.

 


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