The greatest Irishman of them all...

cain1798

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Riadach said:
Maybe some of us are inherently uncomfortable with the taking of life full stop.
Barring the mentally disturbed, this is true for everyone. But simply because something is unpleasant or makes one feel uncomfortable does not mean that it might not be necessary.
 


Riadach

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cain1798 said:
Riadach said:
Maybe some of us are inherently uncomfortable with the taking of life full stop.
Barring the mentally disturbed, this is true for everyone. But simply because something is unpleasant or makes one feel uncomfortable does not mean that it might not be necessary.
Perhaps, but when people state that something can only be achieved by violence, yet some like O'Connell prove that such isn't true, should i be denied satisfaction in that?
 

civic_critic

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No more uncomfortable than me I'll guess. The fact that you have been put in a position of bargaining your liberty against your conscience is an act of violence in itself, a violence to your mind and mental health. I don't see the british engaging in even an iota of the self-flagellation over their capacity to be dangerous that the Irish regularly engage in. This is the nature of 'power' - the empowered are the ones allowed to demand answers without themselves succumbing to analysis and questioning while the depowered are required to justify themselves and apologise for their existence. Power. Nietzsche understood this as a fundamental tenet of existence and human interaction - the will to power. Christianity is based upon this - the all-knowing, all-seeing powerful God who himself is not called upon to explain himself because He is the powerful one while all others must fall before him, beat their breasts in self-apology and constantly analyse and justify themselves before his all-powerful Godlessness.

Power. And the Irish who must apologise for their capacity to be dangerous even while those who do violence to them are not questioned in any significant way. And all those who react to power with fear and respect, such as the lackeys of the establishment to be found in the media and political classes of this society, a collection of people whose attitudes are superficial and largely unthought-out but nevertheless the most respectable you could find.

The church too, which has exercised its power to encourage the Irish to engage in self-apology even while not condemning the real holders and users of power, the british. How many catholic british soldiers have been excommunicated by the catholic church for their actions in Ireland as opposed to the legion Irish who were excommunicated for rising up and asserting themselves?

Power. And the fear and dishonesty it brings out.
 

nawbut

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brilliant

civic_critic said:
The fact that you have been put in a position of bargaining your liberty against your conscience is an act of violence in itself, a violence to your mind and mental health. I don't see the british engaging in even an iota of the self-flagellation over their capacity to be dangerous that the Irish regularly engage in. This is the nature of 'power' - the empowered are the ones allowed to demand answers without themselves succumbing to analysis and questioning while the depowered are required to justify themselves and apologise for their existence.
Wonderfully stated! (but I would have been more comfortable had you stopped there).

But thanks for this much brilliance, all the same.
 

Leftfemme22

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civic_critic said:
No more uncomfortable than me I'll guess. The fact that you have been put in a position of bargaining your liberty against your conscience is an act of violence in itself, a violence to your mind and mental health. I don't see the british engaging in even an iota of the self-flagellation over their capacity to be dangerous that the Irish regularly engage in. This is the nature of 'power' - the empowered are the ones allowed to demand answers without themselves succumbing to analysis and questioning while the depowered are required to justify themselves and apologise for their existence. Power. Nietzsche understood this as a fundamental tenet of existence and human interaction - the will to power. Christianity is based upon this - the all-knowing, all-seeing powerful God who himself is not called upon to explain himself because He is the powerful one while all others must fall before him, beat their breasts in self-apology and constantly analyse and justify themselves before his all-powerful Godlessness.

Power. And the Irish who must apologise for their capacity to be dangerous even while those who do violence to them are not questioned in any significant way. And all those who react to power with fear and respect, such as the lackeys of the establishment to be found in the media and political classes of this society, a collection of people whose attitudes are superficial and largely unthought-out but nevertheless the most respectable you could find.

The church too, which has exercised its power to encourage the Irish to engage in self-apology even while not condemning the real holders and users of power, the british. How many catholic british soldiers have been excommunicated by the catholic church for their actions in Ireland as opposed to the legion Irish who were excommunicated for rising up and asserting themselves?

Power. And the fear and dishonesty it brings out.

This is something I have been aware of for quite some time. It invades many aspects of Irish life (even as a far as accepting substandard services and rip-off prices) which goes beyond any explanation derived from a Civil war which normally accounts for such deep indigenous politico-ideological divisions within a society. Liberty or its derivation is an issue that should not come into the equation under these circumstances.

Many are ashamed of their previous colonisation and are deeply resentful of those who remind them of it. They where historically disempowered and castrated on even the most primal levels. This has permeated into the modern psyche and is very well illustrated by an almost intemperate willingness to justify the border in an attempt to rationalise the past.

Good stuff civic.
 

Catalpa

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Dan was a Great but flawed man - a larger than life character he could play to the gallery whether it consisted of Irish Peasants or his fellow MPs in the HOC.

While he was the public face of the movement for Catholic Emancipation he was by no means the only autor of that success.

He failed of course to achieve Repeal and his commitment to non violence was always his Achilles Heel which the British exploited once they felt it had gone too far.

But a lot of his best work was in the way he helped so many people to break the deadlock of sectarianism and pushed and pushed for Catholics to be allowed to enter Public Life. He also helped people hugely when their luck was down - mind you he wasn't averse to a handout himself when his fortunes were low!

He also successfully defended himself against a rape charge and shot a man dead in a famous duel in Phoenix Park.

Unfortunately his great political enemy Robert Peel ('Orange Peel') and he never met on the field despite many attempts by O'Connell to arrange one...

By no means as good as his starry eyed followers believed but by no means as bad as his detractors made out.

Dan your heart was in the right place but you were only human like the rest of us. ;)
 
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good post civic. it's something i've picked up on but you've managed to put it across in a sensible manner. something i've yet to achieve!!
 

civic_critic

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Leftfemme22 said:
This is something I have been aware of for quite some time. It invades many aspects of Irish life (even as a far as accepting substandard services and rip-off prices) which goes beyond any explanation derived from a Civil war which normally accounts for such deep indigenous politico-ideological divisions within a society. Liberty or its derivation is an issue that should not come into the equation under these circumstances.
Can you explain your thoughts on this more fully?
 

Kerrygold

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Is this the 'great' man who was a member of the Lawyer's Yeomanry Corps of Dublin during the 1798 rising? The same man who helped search for "Croppies" after Robert Emmets rebellion?

There is no doubt that the man had some fine qualities but to describe him as the greatest Irish person ever is a bit of a stretch, and thats coming from a fellow Kerryman!
 

Leftfemme22

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civic_critic said:
Leftfemme22 said:
This is something I have been aware of for quite some time. It invades many aspects of Irish life (even as a far as accepting substandard services and rip-off prices) which goes beyond any explanation derived from a Civil war which normally accounts for such deep indigenous politico-ideological divisions within a society. Liberty or its derivation is an issue that should not come into the equation under these circumstances.
Can you explain your thoughts on this more fully?
It an expansion on post colonialism. Centuries of disempowerment has embedded itself into the Irish conscience. Violence was exacted for disobedience. Which goes toward the barefaced acceptance of sub standard services and the perseverance to being ripped off. It has been conveniently packaged as a 'quiet national dignity' but I think it more an acceptance of exploitation.

Most non-colonised countries which have ingrained socio-ideological divides (Left/Right-Liberal/Conservative) can trace the roots of that divide to a civil war and usually contain any remnant psychological hang-ups within that context. One side was defeated but not enslaved. They fought as equals and were consolidated as equals once hostilities ceased etc etc.

However colonisation does not allow this rationale. The Irish were subjugated, divided and conquered. This has resulted in the fractured approach to liberty.

There are those who draw pride from Irish resistance and there those who try to justify compliance by any means.
 

madura

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Leftfemme22 said:
civic_critic said:
Leftfemme22 said:
This is something I have been aware of for quite some time. It invades many aspects of Irish life (even as a far as accepting substandard services and rip-off prices) which goes beyond any explanation derived from a Civil war which normally accounts for such deep indigenous politico-ideological divisions within a society. Liberty or its derivation is an issue that should not come into the equation under these circumstances.
Can you explain your thoughts on this more fully?
It an expansion on post colonialism. Centuries of disempowerment has embedded itself into the Irish conscience. Violence was exacted for disobedience. Which goes toward the barefaced acceptance of sub standard services and the perseverance to being ripped off. It has been conveniently packaged as a 'quiet national dignity' but I think it more an acceptance of exploitation.
Why then, having risen successfully (in part, anyway) against the old oppressors, would we not keep on doing so against their modern counterparts?

Are you suggesting it’s because only a small proportion of the populace took an active part in the Rising while the rest remained acquiescent?

I believe in the "cultural cringe" and the kind of power relationships that cause the exploited to adopt the perspective of the exploiter; this kind of behaviour is well documented among ‘enslaved’ individuals. I’m just not sure I can accept our common history of subjugation as a cause of our (admittedly egregious) toleration of high prices and shoddy services by our fellows.
 

DOD

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Riadach said:
To achieve what he achieved by exclusively peaceful means itself sets him apart. Although lets not forget there was always a threat of violence behind the monster meetings.
Daniel O' Connell only seems heroic because of the times he lived in. In real terms he wasn't that great. It has to be james Connolly for me. Even if he was born in Scotland.
 

DOD

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Well said CC. As Seán Mac Stíofáin said, when you are guilty of such oppression as the Brits were, you'll get resistance.
 

DOD

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rockofcashel said:
what did he achieve ?

Catholic Emancipation ? What did that mean for the majority of Catholics

Catholic Franchise ? More or less wiped out within a couple of years

An Irish Parliament ? Never came close to it

Mass action ? Funked it at Clontarf and never held the same power again

O' Connell has been lionised in Irish history by those who fear physical force Republicanism.. the only method which has ever brought enough pressure to bear on the British Government to sit down and seriously talk politics to Irishmen and women.

I'll be castigated for writing that, but in essence, its the truth
Spot on ROC. Daniel O' Connell is a 'safe' hero.
 

DOD

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mjcoughlan

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"My body to Ireland, My heart to Rome, My soul to God." - Daniel O'Connell

My own list of great Irishmen (in no particular order).

Daniel O'Connell - The Liberator.
John Redmond - Former MP for Waterford, Home Rule Leader and opponent of violent republicanism.
CS Parnell - Another great Home Rule leader.
WT Cosgrave - First leader of the Free State.
Kevin O'Higgins - former Minister for Justice.
Edmund Burke - Father of Modern Conservatism
 

DSCH

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mjcoughlan said:
John Redmond - Former MP for Waterford, Home Rule Leader and opponent of violent republicanism.
And cheerleader for violent British nationalism.
 

paperweight

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DOD said:
Riadach said:
To achieve what he achieved by exclusively peaceful means itself sets him apart. Although lets not forget there was always a threat of violence behind the monster meetings.
Daniel O' Connell only seems heroic because of the times he lived in. In real terms he wasn't that great. It has to be james Connolly for me. Even if he was born in Scotland.
Reasons for Connolly - if I'm not in danger of going off topic?
 

NeilW

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mjcoughlan said:
Edmund Burke - Father of Modern Conservatism
And one of the driving forces behind catholic emancipation and the act which actually did extend the franchise to catholics as well as repealing the worst of the penal laws.
 


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