The Guardian calls De Valera pro-German

borntorum

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Anyone who has read the Guardian or visited its website website will know that it is indulging in an astonishing amount of anti Catholic rhetoric in connection with the state visit of Pope Benedict. I have been genuinely shocked at the degree of intolerance and group-think amongst much of the British liberal intelligentsia, egged on by the Guardian in particular.

Anyway, the Pope's visit has so far gone off much more successfully than predicted by the Guardian, and this perhaps explains a particularly spiteful and snarly editorial in today's paper. Amongst the invective, it drops this outrageous clanger:

However, Pope Benedict went on to say exactly that, lambasting atheist extremism and aggressive secularism, and ruing the damage the exclusion of God had done to public life in the last century. This, too, had to be parsed. It turned out that he was talking about the Nazis, not Richard Dawkins – although there were problems with that thesis too. What about pro-German De Valera, or Spain, Croatia and Slovakia, where the Catholic church was pro-Nazi?
You might expect to see this sort of gross distortion of Ireland's role in WW2 amongst the more right-wing elements of the Telegraph or the Mail, but the Guardian generally has a decent understanding of recent Irish history for a British publication. Can this mistake by dismissed as the result of some over-excited rhetoric, or does it represent what the British genuinely believe about De Valera in WW2?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/sep/18/pope-visit-turbulent-priest
 
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The OD

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Anyone who has read the Guardian or visited its website website will know that it is indulging in an astonishing amount of anti Catholic rhetoric in connection with the state visit of Pope Benedict. I have been genuinely shocked at the degree of intolerance and group-think amongst much of the British liberal intelligentsia, egged on by the Guardian in particular.

Anyway, the Pope's visit has so far gone off much more successfully than predicted by the Guardian, and this perhaps explains a particularly spiteful and snarly editorial in today's paper. Amongst the invective, it drops this outrageous clanger:

However, Pope Benedict went on to say exactly that, lambasting atheist extremism and aggressive secularism, and ruing the damage the exclusion of God had done to public life in the last century. This, too, had to be parsed. It turned out that he was talking about the Nazis, not Richard Dawkins – although there were problems with that thesis too. What about pro-German De Valera, or Spain, Croatia and Slovakia, where the Catholic church was pro-Nazi?
You might expect to see this sort of gross distortion of Ireland's role in WW2 amongst the more right-wing elements of the Telegraph or the Mail, but the Guardian generally has a decent understanding of recent Irish history for a British publication. Can this mistake by dismissed as the result of some over-excited rhetoric, or does it represent what the British genuinely believe about De Valera in WW2?
He says pro-German, not pro Nazi. I rarely find myself defending Dev, but the text clearly states pro-German and not pro-Nazi to the extent that he makes mention of the decidely the Pro-Nazi sympathies of the Churches of the aforementioned countries?

I doubt anyone with a lick of sense would believe Dev, even at his worse to be pro-Nazi or even close. Sadly however, there would be many in the UK who would believe this, they are, however, massively outnumbered by those who are unaware or totally indifferent to this.
 

dalywise

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Let's not forget that de Valera signed the book of condolences for Hitler. There can be no doubt that Dev would have known from diplomatic reports that the Allies had been freeing concentration and death camps since February 1945 and he woudl certainly have had an inkling of the conditions in them. Signing the book of condolances with that knowledge - I don't blame the Guardian for calling Dev pro-German.

I note that the extract says he was pro-German by the way, not pro-Nazi. Big difference.
 

hiding behind a poster

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Thread title is incorrect. Nowhere does the article say de Valera was pro-Nazi.
 

Sync

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Up to you BornToRum, do you want the thread retitled or zooed? I'm easy.
 

borntorum

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Supporting the Germans in the second world war would involve being pro-Nazi, would it not? I didn't write "pro-German" because I thought that, without the context of the paragraph in which the allegation appeared, it might not be clear what the Guardian was referring to.
 

borntorum

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Up to you BornToRum, do you want the thread retitled or zooed? I'm easy.
If it's going to create a problem I don't mind the thread being retitled, though as I said I think distinctions between 'pro-German' and 'pro-Nazi' in the context of WW2 are marginal
 

johnfás

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Calling him pro-German in the context of WW2, in a sentence which also contains the word Nazi, is pretty akin to calling him Pro-Nazi. Not a fan of Dev in the slightest, but this is just a poor attempt from the Guardian. The author of the piece must not have researched particularly hard and found some gem about Dev signing the books of condolences for Hitler. Ignoring of course the considerable help that the Irish authorities discreetly gave Britain during the war.

Not surprising though. I would buy the Guardian quite regularly, but increasingly less so as it is consistently becoming more shrill than substance, unfortunately.
 

The OD

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If it's going to create a problem I don't mind the thread being retitled, though as I said I think distinctions between 'pro-German' and 'pro-Nazi' in the context of WW2 are marginal
What about this pro-German, anti-Nazi German who was directly involved in WWII?

Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg





Seemed like a good egg all round.
 

Interista

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When posting a thread on the subject of a particular newspaper article, it's a good idea to post a link to it.
 

Sync

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If it's going to create a problem I don't mind the thread being retitled, though as I said I think distinctions between 'pro-German' and 'pro-Nazi' in the context of WW2 are marginal
Well that's the great thing about the board, now you can have 10,000 people telling how stupid that sentiment is.
 

dalywise

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If it's going to create a problem I don't mind the thread being retitled, though as I said I think distinctions between 'pro-German' and 'pro-Nazi' in the context of WW2 are marginal
A lot of disappointed Irish Republicans supported Germany in WWII because they hated the British. Some of these idiots like Francis Stuart even went to Germany to aid the cause. Idiots and all that they were, I doubt that it was in support of Hitler's wish to enslave most of Europe and annihilate whole races that they supported Germany.

I had the distinct displeasure of meeting one of those idiots that went off to live in Germany in the 1930s a few years ago. As I'm not sure if she's still alive I won't name her but even though an old woman, I found her a nasty, hateful and hating piece.
 
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borntorum

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What about this pro-German, anti-Nazi German who was directly involved in WWII?

.
Of course there were many anti-Nazi Germans in the 30s and 40s. However, to call describe a non-German as being 'pro-German' during that period is obviously to describe them as being sympathetic to the Nazis. A non-German non-Nazi might well have had admiration for von Stauffenberg, but that would be unlikely to result in him supporting Germany over the Allies, wouldn't it?
 

McDave

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Supporting the Germans in the second world war would involve being pro-Nazi, would it not? I didn't write "pro-German" because I thought that, without the context of the paragraph in which the allegation appeared, it might not be clear what the Guardian was referring to.
The Guardian is being smart-arsed (but what more can you expect from it). And I think the implication is clear. The tone is very much your either for us or against us.

Ireland was neutral during the war. But in reality, although it was benign enough to Germany, the government actually cooperated closely with the British. So on the merits, the Guardian charge is unwarranted. I don't know of anyone who ever thought DeValera was pro-German as such, let alone pro-Nazi, even taking into account the fact he signed the book of condolences for Hitler - which I think most would just accept was bad judgement.
 

cry freedom

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He says pro-German, not pro Nazi. I rarely find myself defending Dev, but the text clearly states pro-German and not pro-Nazi to the extent that he makes mention of the decidedly the Pro-Nazi sympathies of the Churches of the aforementioned countries?

I doubt anyone with a lick of sense would believe Dev, even at his worse to be pro-Nazi or even close. Sadly however, there would be many in the UK who would believe this, they are, however, massively outnumbered by those who are unaware or totally indifferent to this.
Does anybody know if Dev made a similar trip to the British embassy on the death of George VI in 1952
 

borntorum

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A lot of disappointed Irish Republicans supported Germany in WWII because they hated the British. Some of these idiots like Francis Stuart even went to Germany to aid the cause. Idiots and all that they were, I doubt that it was in support of Hitler's wish to enslave most of Europe and annihilate whole races that they supported Germany.

I had the distinct displeasure of meeting one of those idiots that went off to live in Germany in the 1930s a few years ago. As I'm not sure if she's still alive I won't name her but even though an old woman, and married then to an ex FF TD, I found her a nasty, hateful and hating piece.
Some elements of the IRA were pro-German. There were also micro-fascist parties active at the time that presumably were favourably disposed towards the Nazis. And many Irish people (including Dev) were not well-inclined towards Churchill and the British.

Most historians accept that Dev's signing of the book of condolences for Hitler was not due to any genuine regret on Dev's part at the death of the fuhrer, but arose from Dev's almost autistic sense of propriety. Every Leaving Cert history student knows that Ireland gave a lot of surreptitious help to Britain and the Allies during the second world war.
 

A.Tomás

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Of course pro-German is meant as pro-Nazi.



I too would have expected the guardian to know better, but never really understood why Irish people read that newspaper.

I'm sure there are examples of ignorance and bias regarding Ireland, it's history, the north,etc. (Henry McDonald, it's correspondent comes to mind, see Indymedia).

But since when are the British media, left, right, liberal, racist, not of a johnny foreigner mentality.

British newspaper, British ignorance:cool:
 

A.Tomás

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Some elements of the IRA were pro-German. There were also micro-fascist parties active at the time that presumably were favourably disposed towards the Nazis. And many Irish people (including Dev) were not well-inclined towards Churchill and the British.

Most historians accept that Dev's signing of the book of condolences for Hitler was not due to any genuine regret on Dev's part at the death of the fuhrer, but arose from Dev's almost autistic sense of propriety. Every Leaving Cert history student knows that Ireland gave a lot of surreptitious help to Britain and the Allies during the second world war.
+1.


"not well inlined towards Churchill and the British" sure because he was an imperialist and wanted to invade us.

Expecting a British newspaper to know nor care about though... don't think so.
 

Fr. Hank Tree

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In the context of the passage there is a clear insinuation that the 'pro-German' De Valera was pro-nazi.
 


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