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The Holocaust of Capitalism in the Third World


Cael

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I've been reading Zizek's new book, "Living in the end times," and he mentions a fact that I was very shocked to learn. When Haiti won its independence in 1805, France put a naval blockage on the island for two decades. To life the blockade, Haiti was forced to agree to pay France 150 million Francs (France's entire GNP for a whole year at the time) in 1825 - as compensation for the loss of so many slaves. This was later reduced to 80 million Francs. By the end of the 19th century, repaying this this debt accounted for 80% of Haiti's budget. Believe it or not, the last payment was made in 1947. So, the great great great grandchildren of slaves were paying for the liberty of their ancestors.

And that was not the end of the Capitalist Holocaust in Haiti. In recent times, Haiti has been destroyed by the neo-liberal policies of the IMF, along with several US backed military coups. Is it any wonder that the people were literally eating dirt, even before the recent floods.

Zizek also mentions the Congo, which has now broken down into local warlords selling billions of euro worth of coltan, diamonds, copper, cobalt and gold to US and European multinationals. Each warlord (with his army of drugged children) is under the protection of a multinational corporation. The result is over four million people dead in the last 15 years and the rest near to starvation in a fabulously rich country. China is the latest to get in on the rape of the Congo.
 


splashy

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It sounds like events are occurring cyclically then. What are Zizek's arguments to the contrary?
 

The Field Marshal

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I've been reading Zizek's new book, "Living in the end times," and he mentions a fact that I was very shocked to learn. When Haiti won its independence in 1805, France put a naval blockage on the island for two decades. To life the blockade, Haiti was forced to agree to pay France 150 million Francs (France's entire GNP for a whole year at the time) in 1825 - as compensation for the loss of so many slaves. This was later reduced to 80 million Francs. By the end of the 19th century, repaying this this debt accounted for 80% of Haiti's budget. Believe it or not, the last payment was made in 1947. So, the great great great grandchildren of slaves were paying for the liberty of their ancestors.

And that was not the end of the Capitalist Holocaust in Haiti. In recent times, Haiti has been destroyed by the neo-liberal policies of the IMF, along with several US backed military coups. Is it any wonder that the people were literally eating dirt, even before the recent floods.

Zizek also mentions the Congo, which has now broken down into local warlords selling billions of euro worth of coltan, diamonds, copper, cobalt and gold to US and European multinationals. Each warlord (with his army of drugged children) is under the protection of a multinational corporation. The result is over four million people dead in the last 15 years and the rest near to starvation in a fabulously rich country. China is the latest to get in on the rape of the Congo.
What about the holocaust of communism in China Russia and Cambodia in the region of 80,000,000 murdered under a mad & evil ideology.?

*:mad::evil::mad:*
 

Cael

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It sounds like events are occurring cyclically then. What are Zizek's arguments to the contrary?
I dont know that he is making that argument. Right from its beginnings, capitalism has been genocidal. Africa was devastated by the slave trade to the Americas, and later by the conquests and colonisations. Not a single African person escaped the plague of capitalist exploitation and murder. The same can be said of Asia and South America. So, I dont know if you could say its cyclical. The capitalist murder machine has been working away non stop. The only time that there was any sign of hope was in the 1960s, when many of these countries tried to shake off the chains of capitalism. But, that hope didnt last long.
 

Cael

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What about the holocaust of communism in China Russia and Cambodia in the region of 80,000,000 murdered under a mad & evil ideology.?

*:mad::evil::mad:*
Capitalism has killed hundreds of millions of people and destroyed the lives of billions of people. Capitalism is evil itself.
 

Vincent Browne's tie

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I've been reading Zizek's new book, "Living in the end times," and he mentions a fact that I was very shocked to learn. When Haiti won its independence in 1805, France put a naval blockage on the island for two decades. To life the blockade, Haiti was forced to agree to pay France 150 million Francs (France's entire GNP for a whole year at the time) in 1825 - as compensation for the loss of so many slaves. This was later reduced to 80 million Francs. By the end of the 19th century, repaying this this debt accounted for 80% of Haiti's budget. Believe it or not, the last payment was made in 1947. So, the great great great grandchildren of slaves were paying for the liberty of their ancestors.

And that was not the end of the Capitalist Holocaust in Haiti. In recent times, Haiti has been destroyed by the neo-liberal policies of the IMF, along with several US backed military coups. Is it any wonder that the people were literally eating dirt, even before the recent floods.

Zizek also mentions the Congo, which has now broken down into local warlords selling billions of euro worth of coltan, diamonds, copper, cobalt and gold to US and European multinationals. Each warlord (with his army of drugged children) is under the protection of a multinational corporation. The result is over four million people dead in the last 15 years and the rest near to starvation in a fabulously rich country. China is the latest to get in on the rape of the Congo.
The use of the word capitalism in your heading seems to be out of place to me.

I would say, the use of military power, immorality and evil.

Belief in free market trade, small goverment, low taxes and the freedom to be enterprising,
shouldn't be lumped in with;
the evil and illegal acts of supressing nations, fighting phoney wars and robbing taxpayers blind to bail out elites.

Unfortunately somewhere along the line both have become synonymous with eachother.


The same stigmas are attached to communism and socialism which have the good of people at the heart of them, but are twisted by people on the other side of the line by bringing up the atrocities carried out by leaders who were supporters of the philosophy.
 

making waves

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What about the holocaust of communism in China Russia and Cambodia in the region of 80,000,000 murdered under a mad & evil ideology.?
Capitalism kills 50million people a year - and Stalinism can never catch it seeing as it has left the scene of history.
 

splashy

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I dont know that he is making that argument. Right from its beginnings, capitalism has been genocidal. Africa was devastated by the slave trade to the Americas, and later by the conquests and colonisations. Not a single African person escaped the plague of capitalist exploitation and murder. The same can be said of Asia and South America. So, I dont know if you could say its cyclical. The capitalist murder machine has been working away non stop. The only time that there was any sign of hope was in the 1960s, when many of these countries tried to shake off the chains of capitalism. But, that hope didnt last long.
When a Marxist (even Zizek) writes a book titled 'Living in the End Times', one tends to suspect they are predicting the end of capitalism -which is quite a trendy thing to do.
I see no auguries myself, especially considering the burgeoning of China.
 

Cael

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The use of the word capitalism in your heading seems to be out of place to me.

I would say, the use of military power, immorality and evil.

Belief in free market trade, small goverment, low taxes and the freedom to be enterprising,
shouldn't be lumped in with;
the evil and illegal acts of supressing nations, fighting phoney wars and robbing taxpayers blind to bail out elites.

Unfortunately somewhere along the line both have become synonymous with eachother.


The same stigmas are attached to communism and socialism which have the good of people at the heart of them, but are twisted by people on the other side of the line by bringing up the atrocities carried out by leaders who were supporters of the philosophy.
I understand what you are saying, but the plain fact is that capitalism has never been like the pages of Adam Smith. For that sort of capitalism to work, you have to have a very large number of small producers operating according to perfect competition (or as near to it as possible). But this flies in the face of what capitalists give as the raison d'etre of capitalism, i.e. individual greed. To maintain a situation of perfect competition, you must suppress the individual greed of people would would like to build monopolies - the likes of Bill Gates. So, to maintain perfect competition, you must have a very stong state force blocking just the kind of individual that capitalism says it want to encourage. You have, in effect, a sort of Communist state. On the other hand, the minute you let the likes of Bill Gates off the leash, you have the end of perfect competition and the rise of monopoly power. Small producers are put out of business and forced to sell their labour to the monopolies. These monopolies become so rich and powerful that they can literally buy the state and turn the state into its armed enforcer - this is the situation we have now.

So, I dont see any situation were capitalism could really exist as Adam Smith imagined.
 

Cael

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When a Marxist (even Zizek) writes a book titled 'Living in the End Times', one tends to suspect they are predicting the end of capitalism -which is quite a trendy thing to do.
I see no auguries myself, especially considering the burgeoning of China.
Well, like a lot of others, he refers to late capitalism. That would certainly seem to indicate the end of capitalism. Zizek does make the interesting observation that China might actually be the model of capitalism for the future. A totalitarian state under the control of corporate interests. He, of course, sees this as a nightmare scenario - but is it not precisely what is emerging in the US and Europe?
 

SevenStars

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Capitalism kills 50million people a year - and Stalinism can never catch it seeing as it has left the scene of history.
LOL....Comrade Stalin for all his greatness hardly invented anything that new that it could be called "Stalinism".

But yeah in Trot speak everything from Dengism and Euro-Communism on the right to Pol Pot's Bakuninism and the early Naxalites on the left is "Stalinism"....Why do go with historical analysis....

Did Eugene still sweets from your pram when you were a baby?
 

making waves

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LOL....Comrade Stalin for all his greatness hardly invented anything that new that it could be called "Stalinism".
You are correct - comrade Stalin didn't invent anything - he just used and abused his position the same as the rest of the bureaucracy. The fact that he (with his buddies) was responsible for the reversal of many of the gains of the Russian Revolution is neither here nor there. The fact that he (with his buddies) were responsible for a substantial number of unnecessary deaths is neither here nor there either. The fact that he (with his buddies) usurped the very tenets of Marxism is also an irrelevence. The fact that his paranoia let to him slaughtering many of said same buddies shows what a decent and honourable man he was.

The fact that you impervious to the evidence before your eyes is actually quite sad and as long as you continue to peddle such nonsense you are handing a major propaganda coup to every right-wing hack in the place.

Maybe in the next post you will actually address the issue at hand rather than making a miserable attempt at sounding intellectual.
 

Cael

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You are correct - comrade Stalin didn't invent anything - he just used and abused his position the same as the rest of the bureaucracy. The fact that he (with his buddies) was responsible for the reversal of many of the gains of the Russian Revolution is neither here nor there. The fact that he (with his buddies) were responsible for a substantial number of unnecessary deaths is neither here nor there either. The fact that he (with his buddies) usurped the very tenets of Marxism is also an irrelevence. The fact that his paranoia let to him slaughtering many of said same buddies shows what a decent and honourable man he was.

The fact that you impervious to the evidence before your eyes is actually quite sad and as long as you continue to peddle such nonsense you are handing a major propaganda coup to every right-wing hack in the place.

Maybe in the next post you will actually address the issue at hand rather than making a miserable attempt at sounding intellectual.
Can I ask why the Socialist Party takes part in bourgeois assemblies and shares platforms with Fascists?
 

making waves

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Can I ask why the Socialist Party takes part in bourgeois assemblies
To bring them down

and shares platforms with Fascists?
Nasty one there Cael - you well know it hasn't happened.

Now if you can't defend your political beliefs without resorting to such nonsense then you really should give up on it.
 

SevenStars

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The fact that you impervious to the evidence before your eyes is actually quite sad and as long as you continue to peddle such nonsense you are handing a major propaganda coup to every right-wing hack in the place.

Maybe in the next post you will actually address the issue at hand rather than making a miserable attempt at sounding intellectual.
And how do Trots fight right wing propaganda? But adding its vioce to the anti-communist chorus only adding that you are the "nice" socialists (Trots seem shy about the word communism :oops:)....

Fact remains that its not a miserable attempt to sound intellectual to point out that Trots use the word "Stalinist" to refer to such a large and contradictory range of political movements as to make the word meaningless.
 

SevenStars

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Now if you can't defend your political beliefs without resorting to such nonsense then you really should give up on it.
Uh you did share a platform with fascists (what are members of Loyalist death squads?) just like you offered to rat people after the Poll Tax riot....:oops: :oops: :oops:
 

making waves

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Uh you did share a platform with fascists (what are members of Loyalist death squads?) just like you offered to rat people after the Poll Tax riot....:oops: :oops: :oops:
Remind me again how you did some cheerleading for the maoists who hailed the UWC strike.

Now consider this - Cael puts up a half decent thread about the nature of capitalism and between the two of you, you turn it into an anti-trot rant. What was the point?
 

SevenStars

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Now consider this - Cael puts up a half decent thread about the nature of capitalism and between the two of you, you turn it into an anti-trot rant. What was the point?
You were the one who brought up "Stalinism" is response to a reactionary nutcase who believes Africa would be better off directly under the Brits and that all religion accept Roman Catholicism should be outlawed...What was the point of that?

Trotsky himself said of USSR under the leadership of Comrade Stalin...""Socialism has demonstrated its right to victory, not on the pages of Das Kapital,... but in the languages of steel, concrete and electricity."
 

Cael

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I was really refering to the european parliament as the fascist platform, but, this is off topic anyway. We were talking about four million people dead in the Congo in the last few years because of Capitalism. Needless to say, Iraq and Afganistan have also been reduced the outlaw territories run by warlords, thanks to Capitalist terror.
 

The Field Marshal

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Capitalism has killed hundreds of millions of people and destroyed the lives of billions of people. Capitalism is evil itself.
You are clearly have lost touch with true reality.

Unlike communism capitolism has never been either a coherent or unified political system.

Also your assertions and numbers are absurd.

The communist system has produced truly evil genocidal monsters Stalin.Mao& Pol Pot to name but a few.

Why do you Cael ,a professed Christian, support such systems that have facilitated such monsters?
 

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