The inevitable hard border. Civil disobedience and other wheezes to make it flacid

Ireniall

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
8,431
The UK never used the BA to enforce Customs controls on the Border and under the GFA they cannot deploy the BA for anything other than normal duties.

2. The British Government will make progress towards the objective of asearly a return as possible to normal security arrangements in NorthernIreland, consistent with the level of threat and with a published overallstrategy, dealing with: (i) the reduction of the numbers and role of the Armed Forces deployedin Northern Ireland to levels compatible with a normal peaceful society; (ii) the removal of security installations; (iii) the removal of emergency powers in Northern Ireland; and (iv) other measures appropriate to and compatible with a normalpeaceful society.

The PSNI dont have the numbers to protect a hard Border and never did. it would cost tens of millions. In the 70s and 80s the RUC was double the current strength of the PSNI and they could not secure the Border then, even supported by the BA. Further they say they WILL NOT protect a hard Border, because it would split police loyalties, being perceived as discriminatory to one sector of the community.

So-called smart borders which rely on electronic pre-clearance have manned customs stations, barriers, CCTV and number plate recognition systems. This is because people and goods carry different risks and are separated into two different flows. There is no smart border without physical infrastructure and guards anywhere.

If an invisible tech border was possible there would be one already somewhere in Europe. Anyone with a shred of IT knowledge knows you cannot get one up and running in 12 months, so it is good to go on Brexit Day. Norway and Sweden took 15 years to implement their system and they still rely on physical barriers. Its all a total nonsense.
What I am afraid of with the British proposals is that they would not care about a leaky border. They would simply fall back on the Irish Sea if it resulted in large amounts of EU goods entering the UK with no tariffs paid. If the flow began to go in the other direction I would be afraid that the south would come under pressure from the rest of the EU to allow checks on exports from here in order to stem the flow of British goods evading tariffs by getting through the leaky border. We could not have that. We and the EU in general would have to control the border in order to avoid it. The Belgian proposal to have EU officials operating across the whole island addressed this problem perhaps and had the advantage of not having physical infrastructure at the border but instead spreading the pain across the whole island. It's maybe a least worst solution.
 


statsman

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
55,055
Did you use to be Statsman? If so, why are you now statsman1?
SO, I changed the e-mail address in my profile, never got the confirm mail, and have spent 3 days fruitlessly trying to get stringjack to resend it.

Annoying.
 

Dame_Enda

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
54,075
Switzerland's border seems to be the model the govt wants. There are only a small number of checks. But they are part of the Single Market I think and the UK doesn't want that.

I certainly won't take part in or support civil disobedience
 

Tribal

Well-known member
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
3,206
What I am afraid of with the British proposals is that they would not care about a leaky border. They would simply fall back on the Irish Sea if it resulted in large amounts of EU goods entering the UK with no tariffs paid. If the flow began to go in the other direction I would be afraid that the south would come under pressure from the rest of the EU to allow checks on exports from here in order to stem the flow of British goods evading tariffs by getting through the leaky border. We could not have that. We and the EU in general would have to control the border in order to avoid it. The Belgian proposal to have EU officials operating across the whole island addressed this problem perhaps and had the advantage of not having physical infrastructure at the border but instead spreading the pain across the whole island. It's maybe a least worst solution.
I hear you but we already impose customs checks on roads coming out of NI. It's NIs interest to cooperate with us on this in the event the Brits put a customs border in the Irish sea.
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
217,782
What I am afraid of with the British proposals is that they would not care about a leaky border. They would simply fall back on the Irish Sea if it resulted in large amounts of EU goods entering the UK with no tariffs paid. If the flow began to go in the other direction I would be afraid that the south would come under pressure from the rest of the EU to allow checks on exports from here in order to stem the flow of British goods evading tariffs by getting through the leaky border. We could not have that. We and the EU in general would have to control the border in order to avoid it. The Belgian proposal to have EU officials operating across the whole island addressed this problem perhaps and had the advantage of not having physical infrastructure at the border but instead spreading the pain across the whole island. It's maybe a least worst solution.
But what about other ports, Dublin-Belfast, Dublin-Heathrow etc.? The costs of implementing this unicorn laden border system will still require 10s of thousands of staff and billions in investment. Calais alone, for example, estimates about €750m is required to deal with the UK, Holland has employed an extra 750 customs staff just to deal with the UK alone. Multiply this with the number of UK ports and the 27 EU countries and it will be an astronomical amount added to the Brexit bill.

The UK cant rely on other countries to maintain the UKs borders for it on the UKs behalf.
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
217,782
Could not the UK be legally challenged in an international court to not have a hard border given its position established by the GFA?
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
217,782
Suggestions for how not to take it?

Civil disobedience? Options?


I would be more worried about the Usual Crims. The theory is trusted traders will have to register in a data base before they cross the Border and take their mobile phone with them so they can be "clicked" through. Phones and their IDs can be stolen and copied, databases hacked and registrations added. And if you dont check your trusted traders anyway, how do you know they wont be smuggling something in the back of their van?

Citizens will be cleared by RFID technology to check enhanced drivers licences. It will be stolen in a week and posted on the darknet, so anyone can cross. RFID tags are not water-tight.

There are 15 major crossings into the Republic and around 100 smaller ones. These will have to be monitored by CCTV and ANPR. The infrastructure will be attacked and disabled.

Its unworkable.
 

Franzoni

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
16,327
But what about other ports, Dublin-Belfast, Dublin-Heathrow etc.? The costs of implementing this unicorn laden border system will still require 10s of thousands of staff and billions in investment. Calais alone, for example, estimates about €750m is required to deal with the UK, Holland has employed an extra 750 customs staff just to deal with the UK alone. Multiply this with the number of UK ports and the 27 EU countries and it will be an astronomical amount added to the Brexit bill.

The UK cant rely on other countries to maintain the UKs borders for it on the UKs behalf.
Yet that seems to be what the UK Brexiteers are suggesting every time they are interviewed...

One theory which seem to be doing the rounds among them is to try and call the EU/Ireland bluff by forcing us to erect a border to protect the common market and maintain standards.....

What they forget is it is they who want borders to stop immigration..i know if i were say France for example and the Brits started acting the maggot i know what i would do......:D
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
217,782
Yet that seems to be what the UK Brexiteers are suggesting every time they are interviewed...

One theory which seem to be doing the rounds among them is to try and call the EU/Ireland bluff by forcing us to erect a border to protect the common market and maintain standards.....

What they forget is it is they who want borders to stop immigration..i know if i were say France for example and the Brits started acting the maggot i know what i would do......:D
Exactly. it is total BS. They manage their own Borders, that is what they wanted to take back control over. Well there are other Borders than the Irish one. If they walk away from that and say it is the sole responsibility of the EU to guard its own Borders with us, they are going to get the shock of their life. No country does that except a totally failed state.
 

wombat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
33,111
I think we are looking at the hard border from the wrong side. If the UK stops conforming to EU standards, especially on food, the demand for border controls will come from our agriculture lobby.
 

HarshBuzz

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
11,815
SO, I changed the e-mail address in my profile, never got the confirm mail, and have spent 3 days fruitlessly trying to get stringjack to resend it.

Annoying.
missed opportunity to become statesman

on such little things do the wheels of history turn
 

firefly123

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
28,368
Exactly. it is total BS. They manage their own Borders, that is what they wanted to take back control over. Well there are other Borders than the Irish one. If they walk away from that and say it is the sole responsibility of the EU to guard its own Borders with us, they are going to get the shock of their life. No country does that except a totally failed state.
I assume the French usher all those individuals who wish to go to join their families and friends in the UK directly onto the ferries and let the UK figure it out.
 

HarshBuzz

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
11,815

Franzoni

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
16,327
I assume the French usher all those individuals who wish to go to join their families and friends in the UK directly onto the ferries and let the UK figure it out.
In a nutshell...

We should start looking into cargo aircraft and more ferries we're going to need them....
 

Watcher2

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
34,480
The biggest shock is how seemingly intelligent people thought it could be any other way. Now watch the obviously unintelligent use it as an excuse to attempt to get away with murder, literally.
 

shiel

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
17,617
Brexit is a deliberate decision to tear up two treaties.

One with the democracies of the EU and the other the Good Friday Agreement with this former colony.

Its motivation is English racism.

The consequences in terms of damage to international relations are being enjoyed by the Brexiteers.
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
217,782
I assume the French usher all those individuals who wish to go to join their families and friends in the UK directly onto the ferries and let the UK figure it out.
"Ah yes, Jihadi Jim, you have someone to meet in Manchester.... dont let us delay you ...."
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top