The Irish - ''... an untrained and undisciplined people...''

Jack White

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A quote from Ernest Blythe, just reminded of it now on Drivetime...

''...the first step towards progress is a clear recognition of the fact that, instead of being a race of super-idealists whose misfortunes are due entirely to the crimes of outside enemies, we are an untrained and undisciplined people with practically everything to learn of the difficult business of organising national life...''
Reading that quote, it seems to me to be as apposite now as it was then.

Therefore is the first step of reform, to reform the electorate ? I believe it is.

A parliament of legislators; rather than parish-pump, planning permission greasers, can only come about when we as a vast majority demand that that is what we require of our servants.

How do we nurture such an electorate ?
 


Anglo Celt

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A quote from Ernest Blythe, just reminded of it now on Drivetime...



Reading that quote, it seems to me to be as apposite now as it was then.

Therefore is the first step of reform, to reform the electorate ? I believe it is.

A parliament of legislators; rather than parish-pump, planning permission greasers, can only come about when we as a vast majority demand that that is what we require of our servants.

How do we cultivate such an electorate ?
Slighty OT, but it always struck me, reading pre independence political history, how slick and savvy Irish politicians (of all hues) were. They really were a credit to themselves, and that includes the ones I'd disagree with politically. It's no surprise that at independence a bunch of good for nothings appointed themselves as masters of the realm without so much as a few years experience between them on the grounds that they were "the chosen ones". Dev even started a war because he wasn't given the reigns of power. We've continued the trait to this day. Sadly.

There's no shame in admitting our failings. We can always start again.
 

Cael

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A quote from Ernest Blythe, just reminded of it now on Drivetime...



Reading that quote, it seems to me to be as apposite now as it was then.

Therefore is the first step of reform, to reform the electorate ? I believe it is.

A parliament of legislators; rather than parish-pump, planning permission greasers, can only come about when we as a vast majority demand that that is what we require of our servants.

How do we nurture such an electorate ?
The answer to that is very simple - introduce a system of Direct Democracy. Its only when people have responsibility for themselves, and become legislators for themselves and their people, that they can behave as adults. Representational democracy always infantalises people. All you are allowed to do is choose your rulers. You write some numbers on a page every four or five years, and you behave as a depoliticised infant for the rest of the time.
 

Cael

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Blythe was an interesting man.
He was a pretty typical bourgeois nationalist. If he had been born a Catholic there would be nothing exceptional about him at all. He really brought the standard of the Abbey Theatre down during his time there, opting all the time for box office favourites rather than trying to develop a national theatre, as Yeats had done.
 

FakeViking

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Blythe was an interesting man. That was an updated version of what O'Connell said.
He sounded like quite an unpleasant character. His modern day equal, St Lenny, on the other hand sounds like the kind of fella you'd have a night out with. Just shows how difficult it is to judge people.
 

Jack White

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The answer to that is very simple - introduce a system of Direct Democracy. Its only when people have responsibility for themselves, and become legislators for themselves and their people, that they can behave as adults. Representational democracy was infantalises people. All you are allowed to do is choose your rulers. You write some numbers on a page every four or five years, and you behave as a depoliticised infant for the rest of the time.
Nothing for me to argue with there.

But - what is the catalyst for change ? How do we as a society ''unsheeple'' ourselves ?

Will we ever again see the artisan autodidacticism described by E.P. Thompson in ''The Makings...'', for example ?
 

Ireland_sucks

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The answer to that is very simple - introduce a system of Direct Democracy. Its only when people have responsibility for themselves, and become legislators for themselves and their people, that they can behave as adults. Representational democracy always infantalises people. All you are allowed to do is choose your rulers. You write some numbers on a page every four or five years, and you behave as a depoliticised infant for the rest of the time.
You're right, that is the answer.

Next question, how to achieve direct democracy. Only by revolting, I fear.
 
B

Boggle

The answer to that is very simple - introduce a system of Direct Democracy. Its only when people have responsibility for themselves, and become legislators for themselves and their people, that they can behave as adults. Representational democracy always infantalises people. All you are allowed to do is choose your rulers. You write some numbers on a page every four or five years, and you behave as a depoliticised infant for the rest of the time.
Treat people like adults and they'll act like adults. Infanticise them and you'll end up with a nation of children.
 

Half Nelson

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Because politicians are elected to fill potholes then it should come as no surprise that we elect the best pothole-fillers.
If the time comes when we are given the chance to vote for ministers then we will elect the best ministers.
In short - the system stinks!
 

Cael

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Nothing for me to argue with there.

But - what is the catalyst for change ? How do we as a society ''unsheeple'' ourselves ?

Will we ever again see the artisan autodidacticism described by E.P. Thompson in ''The Makings...'', for example ?

Well, thats a very good question. Unfortuantely, what we are seeing now is what Naomi Klein refers to as the Shock Doctrine. The average Irish person is now so frightened and confused that the ruling elite can do absolutely anything it likes with them, with little or no protest. We are now in a situation very similar to Russia after the collapse of the USSR.
 

Cruimh

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The answer to that is very simple - introduce a system of Direct Democracy. Its only when people have responsibility for themselves, and become legislators for themselves and their people, that they can behave as adults. Representational democracy always infantalises people. All you are allowed to do is choose your rulers. You write some numbers on a page every four or five years, and you behave as a depoliticised infant for the rest of the time.

“.... the materialist majority are sheep who must be driven by the minority of energetic idealists ....”
page 40, Century of Endeavour, Roy H.W. Johnston, The Lilliut Press, 2003.
 

truthisfree

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A quote from Ernest Blythe, just reminded of it now on Drivetime...



Reading that quote, it seems to me to be as apposite now as it was then.

Therefore is the first step of reform, to reform the electorate ? I believe it is.

A parliament of legislators; rather than parish-pump, planning permission greasers, can only come about when we as a vast majority demand that that is what we require of our servants.

How do we nurture such an electorate ?
Nail on the head, how on earth do we start to do this?
 

Scipio

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I love the Irish - there isn't a people in the world better at self-flagellation and pity, excluding perhaps Iranian Shiites.
Yes, we got ahead of ourselves. Yes, some, perhaps many, of our politicians were corrupt. Yes, we need change.

No, we are not a genetically inferior people, and no, the world isn't going to end tomorrow simply because the IMF are here.

Funnily enough, the English never engaged in this type of thing in 1976 (or throughout the 70s when their economy was in the doldrums). They simply changed course, and got on with it.
 

Cael

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I love the Irish - there isn't a people in the world better at self-flagellation and pity, excluding perhaps Iranian Shiites.
Yes, we got ahead of ourselves. Yes, some, perhaps many, of our politicians were corrupt. Yes, we need change.

No, we are not a genetically inferior people, and no, the world isn't going to end tomorrow simply because the IMF are here.

Funnily enough, the English never engaged in this type of thing in 1976 (or throughout the 70s when their economy was in the doldrums). They simply changed course, and got on with it.
Most English people are naturally slaves. They have been since the Norman invasion. But, we have a history of resistance (even if it was always only a handful who resisted). I think Irish people are genuinely surprised, and more than a little shocked, to realise just how slavish and abject we have become.
 

Ireland_sucks

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Well, the HSE don't seem that undisiplined, nor are they reluctant to attempt to discipline pregnant mothers: HSE in case over HIV-positive mother-to-be - RT News

This is a shocking development - the HSE belive they have the right to force brith and pump drugs into a baby. The State is attempting to claim ownership of our bodies now?

And this hysterical response is about a possible non-problem: A Closer Look at HIV. The HIV hypothesis is full of holes. But it's a fantastic money machine.

This country is turning into a gulag.
 

Chadster

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i think the first thing we need to do is figure out which media organisations need to be destroyed, and then destroy them. if we dont do that nothing will change.
 

antsrathcam

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I'm glad to see this thread - it's about the most intelligent one here.

We have to acknowledge that there is no 'ruling élite' - we live in a democracy. The electoral system is not perfect but no-one can argue that we are not ruled by ourselves. It is a truism that there is in fact too much democracy here.

What we appear to be lacking in is patriotic duty to the State. The Irish are very patriotic to the Nation but we appear to have a poor sense of civic duty and revert to personal and sectional interests as a default position.

I believe that there are a number of reasons for this:

a) A sense that the State does not include all of the rightful national territory.

b) A failure to revive Irish leading us to be reluctant semi-participants in a derived British culture.

c) A history of oppression which has led us to view authority as illegitimate.

d) A rural small-farmer political culture which has as its core a sense of fatalism and a determination to ag dul ag baint as everything around it.

The land reforms of the 1900s gave the Irish peasantry more or less all they wanted. But the fuse had been lit by then. Revolution and partition was inevitable.
 

Jack White

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Most English people are naturally slaves. They have been since the Norman invasion. But, we have a history of resistance (even if it was always only a handful who resisted). I think Irish people are genuinely surprised, and more than a little shocked, to realise just how slavish and abject we have become.
I don't understand your characterisation of the majority of the English as natural slaves.

The older I get, the more merit I see in their instinctive and defiant Euro-scepticism.

I wish we were more like that, and less of the outstretched hand. That is an enslaving thing.
 


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