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The Irish and their wars......2635 thousand miles away


Mr Aphorisms

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What is it about the of this country and getting their noses involved in other peoples wars, whilst ignoring wars that go on in our own country, or social and economic injustices in our own country?

Israel is 2635.00 miles away from Ireland Distance from Ireland to Israel. Yet both Israeli and Palestinian pontificators have over the last 60 years, consistently refused to hold a position on the state of Ireland in the 6 counties. 'The GFA sorted it all out, move along' is what you're mostly accustomed too. That's fair enough, but it goes deeper than that, when looking at the history.

Vincent Browne - with his idiosyncrasy of crazed hyperbole - put aside his Jacobin sentiments for the titles of 'Minister' and for everyone to be called 'citizen' - maybe hyperbole from me now - a short while ago and let out with such palpable indignation, I am sure it sent shockwaves towards Israel.. If I may paraphrase him, it went something like this (remember now, Vincent had his crying face on): 'The Arabs had the land and it was taken off them and now they don't have it and it's an injustice.'

A very noble position of Vincent to poke his nose in at others' affairs, but when the affairs are for the Irish people and the North, well, Vincent is no where to be found. When the land of Ireland was robbed, the language raped, the culture destroyed, the economic system implemented by the foreign occupier allowed millions to die and emigrate, when 'ruling by fooling' with the false hope of Home Rule was played to the Redmondites, when the 1918 elections ignored, with the boundary Commission, the sectarian state in the North, did you ever see tears from Vincent Browne about how the Irish land was robbed?

I am not comparing Marian Price and Martin Corey's internment with the fight between the Palestinians and the Israeli's, nor am I comparing the illegal arrests of eírígí members with the fight in that part of the world, but Vincent was no where to be found before and during the Troubles and is not taking up serious injustices happening right now in the 6 counties (UN doctor to visit Marian Price due to health concerns. | Independent Republican News) In fact, he was found condemning people for standing up for their rights and went out of his way to undermine the defense of Catholics by a sectarian state, as well as the conquest for the North which the Free Staters in their Constitution claimed was theirs.

But this doesn't just end with former Blueshirts, non-republican socialists and others, this crazed fight for other causes but our own has been around for a long time. Take for example, when the Irish were picketing Dunnes Stores for Apartheid in the seventies. Again, a very noble thing to do. Nothing dangerous about it, a day out with the child holding up a sign which the parent made and a few pictures to be taken and a nice sing song. The fighting Irish really did show those racists that they would stand up for the cause of blacks in South Africa. But when their own were being burned out of their homes one hour from Dublin and when the Brits were rounding them up for torture? 'Oh, oh then you can go the John Hume route and get your head smashed in. Then when the British army comes, they'll keep the peave by implementing curfews, arms raids (not on loyalists) and shoot a few along the way. And when you fight back, an Irishman south of the border will be there to tell you of what a mess you have created by fighting back.'

This obsession of the Irish with fights thousands of miles away has gone back further than the foundation of the Free State. James Connolly, with profound accuracy, pointed out that the Irish were more concerned with getting slaughtered for other countries, but their own:

Yes, we are a fighting race. Whether it is under the Stars and Stripes or under the Union Jack; planting the flag of America over the walls of Santiago or helping our own oppressors to extend their hated rule over other unfortunate nations our brave Irish boys are ever to the front.

Yes, we are a fighting race. In Africa, India or America, wherever blood is to be spilt, there you will find Irishmen, eager and anxious for a fight, under any flag, in anybody's quarrel, in any cause – except their own.

In that cause, for our own freedom and own land, we have for the last century consistently refused to fight. On any other part of the earth's surface we can shed our blood with the blessing of Mother Church and the prayers of the faithful to strengthen our arms, but in Ireland and for the freedom of the Irish people.

Anathema.
James Connolly: Fighting Race (1898)

Has anyone an idea of why the Irish are more concerned with fights thousands of miles away, instead of one hour? Connolly blamed the Church but surely that is not a serious reason anymore?
 


Mr Aphorisms

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What did you do in the war?
I wasn't alive during most of the Troubles, nor would I have likely been any use physically. I am not also saying people should have went up and started fighting, there were other ways. Such as the way they helped the plight of blacks in South Africa in the seventies in a peaceful way.

This isn't a 'I'm a tough guy, you're not' thread. I'm not. Dialogue should always be the first option. Is there anything else?
 

Levellers

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Nobody had to go 'up' fighting anywhere.There's always plenty to do.

"Everyone, Republican or otherwise has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
Bobby Sands
 

ON THE ONE ROAD

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It is true that there is but one connecting link between us and the sufferers; that while most others know only apolitical and geographical separation from them, we alone realize that formidable and eternal one which the hand of man made not. But thanks to the Lord that connecting link is strong enough, and long enough to withstand all attempts to make the separa­tion complete and irreparable. Prejudice, bigotry, fanaticism with their attendant spirits, ignorance, intolerance and persecution cannot break it. Selfishness, avarice, cruelty in vain assist in the unholy work. Forged as it was, by religion, virtue and charity it is indestructible, it is all-powerful. That link, my brethren, is HUMANITY!

the speech happened at a time when the jewish community in new york had its own local commitments. in the full speech he comes at it from a few other angles than the quote above but think when it you boil it down to it the quote above is the essence of the man and people like him. there are just some people in this world who can see past all the bull ************************ and at a particular point in time their harts are big and open enough to want to help people in trouble just for the reason that they need help. if thats odd fair enough but its sad that its odd. link to the full speech here. Meeting Of The Jewish Population Of New York In Aid Of Ireland.
 

TimBuckII

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Great OP just one problem with it and that's the Connolly quote.

Connolly was right to an extent but as you admit in the OP rish people did fight back.
Not all of them but it was Irish people who fought back. When you are pointing out the hypocrasy it's not accurate to use 'Irish people' in the collective term.
Those who did fight back and those who didn't but stood on the sidelines or actively supported the Brits should be seperated.
 

Franker65

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Vincent is allowed comment on a certain political situation without having to comment on another one. I really am struggling in some way to get your point. Are you suggesting we all take up arms and invade the north? We have peace on our island for the first time in decades and I'd like to enjoy it - in the end it came through diplomacy.

For the most part, the practice of Irishmen taking part in foreign wars primarily occurred due to emigration. And its quite common practice for the people of smaller nations to partake in foreign wars for adventure - Irish weren't the only foreigners taking part in the Spanish Civil War. Look at Norwegians who fought with Finland in the Winter War.
 

Analyzer

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Nothing makes the Irish cover up any sense of failure from the incompetence at home, like an adventure in superficiality combined with "look at how great we are, other people couldn't function without us".....

A little bit of maturity needed.
 

NewDawn1

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Nobody had to go 'up' fighting anywhere.There's always plenty to do.

"Everyone, Republican or otherwise has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
Bobby Sands
Except if your in modern Sinn Fein, then every excuse possible can be made in order to avoid fighting for 'freedom'.
 

RedCloud

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Nobody had to go 'up' fighting anywhere.There's always plenty to do.

"Everyone, Republican or otherwise has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
Bobby Sands
Slimmer of the year :)
 

RedCloud

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Except if your in modern Sinn Fein, then every excuse possible can be made in order to avoid fighting for 'freedom'.
1,700 people, murdered by the pira death squads certainly attained freedom.....not to breath anymore. :(
 

Hitch 22

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What is it about the of this country and getting their noses involved in other peoples wars, whilst ignoring wars that go on in our own country, or social and economic injustices in our own country?

Israel is 2635.00 miles away from Ireland Distance from Ireland to Israel. Yet both Israeli and Palestinian pontificators have over the last 60 years, consistently refused to hold a position on the state of Ireland in the 6 counties. 'The GFA sorted it all out, move along' is what you're mostly accustomed too. That's fair enough, but it goes deeper than that, when looking at the history.

Vincent Browne - with his idiosyncrasy of crazed hyperbole - put aside his Jacobin sentiments for the titles of 'Minister' and for everyone to be called 'citizen' - maybe hyperbole from me now - a short while ago and let out with such palpable indignation, I am sure it sent shockwaves towards Israel.. If I may paraphrase him, it went something like this (remember now, Vincent had his crying face on): 'The Arabs had the land and it was taken off them and now they don't have it and it's an injustice.'

A very noble position of Vincent to poke his nose in at others' affairs, but when the affairs are for the Irish people and the North, well, Vincent is no where to be found. When the land of Ireland was robbed, the language raped, the culture destroyed, the economic system implemented by the foreign occupier allowed millions to die and emigrate, when 'ruling by fooling' with the false hope of Home Rule was played to the Redmondites, when the 1918 elections ignored, with the boundary Commission, the sectarian state in the North, did you ever see tears from Vincent Browne about how the Irish land was robbed?

I am not comparing Marian Price and Martin Corey's internment with the fight between the Palestinians and the Israeli's, nor am I comparing the illegal arrests of eírígí members with the fight in that part of the world, but Vincent was no where to be found before and during the Troubles and is not taking up serious injustices happening right now in the 6 counties (UN doctor to visit Marian Price due to health concerns. | Independent Republican News) In fact, he was found condemning people for standing up for their rights and went out of his way to undermine the defense of Catholics by a sectarian state, as well as the conquest for the North which the Free Staters in their Constitution claimed was theirs.

But this doesn't just end with former Blueshirts, non-republican socialists and others, this crazed fight for other causes but our own has been around for a long time. Take for example, when the Irish were picketing Dunnes Stores for Apartheid in the seventies. Again, a very noble thing to do. Nothing dangerous about it, a day out with the child holding up a sign which the parent made and a few pictures to be taken and a nice sing song. The fighting Irish really did show those racists that they would stand up for the cause of blacks in South Africa. But when their own were being burned out of their homes one hour from Dublin and when the Brits were rounding them up for torture? 'Oh, oh then you can go the John Hume route and get your head smashed in. Then when the British army comes, they'll keep the peave by implementing curfews, arms raids (not on loyalists) and shoot a few along the way. And when you fight back, an Irishman south of the border will be there to tell you of what a mess you have created by fighting back.'

This obsession of the Irish with fights thousands of miles away has gone back further than the foundation of the Free State. James Connolly, with profound accuracy, pointed out that the Irish were more concerned with getting slaughtered for other countries, but their own:



James Connolly: Fighting Race (1898)

Has anyone an idea of why the Irish are more concerned with fights thousands of miles away, instead of one hour? Connolly blamed the Church but surely that is not a serious reason anymore?
When innocent civilians were shot dead or blown up, when members of the Gardaí were shot, when people like Don Tidey and Tiede Herrama were kidnapped, when the papers were full of stories of punishment beatings and kneecappings etc etc. the public in the south wanted to having nothing to do with the PIRA and the Troubles. It is as simple as that. The violence in the north might as well have been on another planet and both nationalists and unionists were insane aliens from outer space. Most people said "F*ck these people. We want nothing to do with them."
 

TimBuckII

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When innocent civilians were shot dead or blown up, when members of the Gardaí were shot, when people like Don Tidey and Tiede Herrama were kidnapped, when the papers were full of stories of punishment beatings and kneecappings etc etc. the public in the south wanted to having nothing to do with the PIRA and the Troubles. It is as simple as that. The violence in the north might as well have been on another planet and both nationalists and unionists were insane aliens from outer space. Most people said "F*ck these people. We want nothing to do with them."
Isn't that convienient.
 

Socratus O' Pericles

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Vincent is allowed comment on a certain political situation without having to comment on another one. I really am struggling in some way to get your point. Are you suggesting we all take up arms and invade the north? We have peace on our island for the first time in decades and I'd like to enjoy it - in the end it came through diplomacy.

For the most part, the practice of Irishmen taking part in foreign wars primarily occurred due to emigration. And its quite common practice for the people of smaller nations to partake in foreign wars for adventure - Irish weren't the only foreigners taking part in the Spanish Civil War. Look at Norwegians who fought with Finland in the Winter War.
I think the point is that before one goes interfering in other people's business one should be sound on the national question.
 

Mr Aphorisms

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When innocent civilians were shot dead or blown up, when members of the Gardaí were shot, when people like Don Tidey and Tiede Herrama were kidnapped, when the papers were full of stories of punishment beatings and kneecappings etc etc. the public in the south wanted to having nothing to do with the PIRA and the Troubles. It is as simple as that. The violence in the north might as well have been on another planet and both nationalists and unionists were insane aliens from outer space. Most people said "F*ck these people. We want nothing to do with them."
Yes, that was the position before 1969 as well. When loyalists were even bombing the Free State and the father of Irish Republicanisms most sacred site in Kildare.

You are quite correct, that was the position, yes.

The thing is though, we're now seeing the democratic route being taken in the North and still, people are seeing PSF conspiracies everywhere, regarding the Union flag. See Johnny365's thread for more details. It had little to do with violence in the North, but everything to do with apathy and callous disregard for Catholics in the North.

Look how the paddies cheered on Obama when he came over after ordering a plethora of Omagh type bombings in terms of the destruction that they caused. He ordered men in suits, to sit - irionically - thousands of miles away from the targeted site and fly a drone to bomb targets, even at weddings. And yet, the man is still popular here. Despite, covering up torture for Bush, which he promised to tackle during the 08 election.

So don't talk to me about innocent people dying at the hands of the provo's. You yourself cheer on foreign armies to plunder the 'mad' Muslims, seeing children being killed as nothing more than casualties of war.
 

TimBuckII

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Yes, that was the position before 1969 as well. When loyalists were even bombing the Free State and the father of Irish Republicanisms most sacred site in Kildare.

You are quite correct, that was the position, yes.

The thing is though, we're now seeing the democratic route being taken in the North and still, people are seeing PSF conspiracies everywhere, regarding the Union flag. See Johnny365's thread for more details. It had little to do with violence in the North, but everything to do with apathy and callous disregard for Catholics in the North.

Look how the paddies cheered on Obama when he came over after ordering a plethora of Omagh type bombings in terms of the destruction that they caused. He ordered men in suits, to sit - irionically - thousands of miles away from the targeted site and fly a drone to bomb targets, even at weddings. And yet, the man is still popular here. Despite, covering up torture for Bush, which he promised to tackle during the 08 election.

So don't talk to me about innocent people dying at the hands of the provo's. You yourself cheer on foreign armies to plunder the 'mad' Muslims, seeing children being killed as nothing more than casualties of war.
That's a little less convenient.
 

konman

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ireland is now an anglo irish country predominantly and this explains why irish people were so reluctant to fight for "mother ireland" as espoused by pearce and conno;;y etc. the famine displaced and killed millions of the poorest and most vulnerable people living on the island who were predominantly the native irish. most families in the island can trace at least some part of their recent ancestry (last 300 years) to britain. pearces idea of a gaelic ireland is dead and buried killed off by a well developed colonial machine never to rise again.
 

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