• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please contact us.

The Irish/Gaelic Invasion of Scotland

Nimrod

Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
41
What is the opinion of Republicans and other whingers who go on about 'Britain invading Ireland', in regards to this act of Irish/Gaelic imperialism?


How would Scotland have developed without this act of imperialism ?


"Starting sometime around the 5th century Gaelic language and culture spread from Ireland to the southwest coast of Scotland where it may have already existed since Roman times. Uncertainty over this comes as a result of the fact that there is disputed archaeological evidence to support the generally accepted tale of migration while there is some to suggest that there was none - the evidence also points to the population of the area (modern day Argyll) being constant during the time of the alleged Scottish invasion. This area was known as Dál Riata. The Gaels soon spread out to most of the rest of the country. Culturo-linguistic dominance in the area eventually led to the Latin name for Gaelic speaking peoples, "Scoti", being applied to the state founded by the Gaels, Scotland (Alba in Gaelic). Since that time Gaelic language rose and, in the past three centuries, greatly diminished, in most of Ireland and Scotland. The most culturally and linguistically Gaelic regions are in the north west of Scotland, the west of Ireland and Cape Breton Island in Nova Scotia where the descendants of the Highland Clearances were transplanted."





"The Gaels took over the kingdom of the Picts in the north east of Scotland and then the other kingdoms in southern Scotland, creating Scotland as a single kingdom within its present boundaries by 1013 AD. Scotland is therefore older than England, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Belgium and other European countries.

By about the tenth century Gaelic was the official language of all of Scotland and Ireland
 


Cael

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,304
I still cant work out if you are Nimrod the vampire from "Dracula Lives" or Nimrod the undercover British agent from "Hogans Heros". Though I think the above gives us a clue.
 

BelfastSpark

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
23
Nimrods historical accuracy is exellent, certainly it opens the questions and debates about the pros and cons of any cultural invasion, Many ultra Republicans will try to make a case of differance between the Irish Invasion of Scotland and that of Ireland and ignore that invasion is natural, for 1 culture at its military and cultural apex to invade another, it human nature its been going on for thousands of years.In the case of Ireland being invaded well it was just our turn, Nimrod makes more interesting points when he reminds us of how one culture becomes dominated by another in launguage and customs. Well this is also true of Ireland, it is totally anglosised yet with a deep underlying gaelic identity as well, history and anthropology shows us that nations-cultures that havent gone through Invasion or outside influence stay in a state of stone age, or a level of culture and sophistication that is eons behind those that have. in other words Invasions even in the case of Ireland-scotland are to the betterment of the race in the long run and sorrowfully bad in the short term.
 

Sidewinder

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Messages
442
BelfastSpark said:
invasion is natural, for 1 culture at its military and cultural apex to invade another, it human nature its been going on for thousands of years.In the case of Ireland being invaded well it was just our turn...Invasions are to the betterment of the race in the long run...
NURSE!

:shock:

Dude, you really need to up the dosage.
 

Cael

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,304
BelfastSpark said:
Nimrods historical accuracy is exellent, certainly it opens the questions and debates about the pros and cons of any cultural invasion, Many ultra Republicans will try to make a case of differance between the Irish Invasion of Scotland and that of Ireland and ignore that invasion is natural, for 1 culture at its military and cultural apex to invade another, it human nature its been going on for thousands of years.In the case of Ireland being invaded well it was just our turn, Nimrod makes more interesting points when he reminds us of how one culture becomes dominated by another in launguage and customs. Well this is also true of Ireland, it is totally anglosised yet with a deep underlying gaelic identity as well, history and anthropology shows us that nations-cultures that havent gone through Invasion or outside influence stay in a state of stone age, or a level of culture and sophistication that is eons behind those that have. in other words Invasions even in the case of Ireland-scotland are to the betterment of the race in the long run and sorrowfully bad in the short term.
Who are these "ultra republicans" who say the Gaelic invasion of Scotland was any different to any other invasion? I never heard them anyway.

And perhaps you could give a reference for these works of "anthropology" and "history" which show that any nation which hasnt gone through invasion stays in a stone age state. Does that mean that Japan was in the stone age until 1945?
 

Sidewinder

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Messages
442
Cael said:
And perhaps you could give a reference for these works of "anthropology" and "history" which show that any nation which hasnt gone through invasion stays in a stone age state.
But Cael, how could any nation possibly develop law and civilisation and culture by themselves without the benevolent guiding hand of Mutha Ingerlund? It's just not possible, we need them to save us from our savage and primitive barbarism. It is sadly regrettable that some, err, tough love had to be administered to drag us up to something approaching civilisation, and Mutha's heart bleeds every time she has to chastise us, but really at the end of the day it's all for our own good and we're the better for it, eh what?

:roll:

I wonder if there's a cure. A cream, maybe, or a vaccine shot.
 

MichaelR

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Messages
1,924
Cael said:
And perhaps you could give a reference for these works of "anthropology" and "history" which show that any nation which hasnt gone through invasion stays in a stone age state. Does that mean that Japan was in the stone age until 1945?
Actually Japan was forced to "open up" in the mid-19th century. Before that it was a feudal tightly-controlled (one could even say "totalitarian") society, with, for example, Christianity totally banned.
 

Cael

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,304
MichaelR said:
Cael said:
And perhaps you could give a reference for these works of "anthropology" and "history" which show that any nation which hasnt gone through invasion stays in a stone age state. Does that mean that Japan was in the stone age until 1945?
Actually Japan was forced to "open up" in the mid-19th century. Before that it was a feudal tightly-controlled (one could even say "totalitarian") society, with, for example, Christianity totally banned.
But it wasnt invaded and had a highly developed culture long before the Europeans came - a very long way from "stone age".
 

Sidewinder

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Messages
442
MichaelR said:
Actually Japan was forced to "open up" in the mid-19th century. Before that it was a feudal tightly-controlled (one could even say "totalitarian") society, with, for example, Christianity totally banned.
"open up" from who's point of view, exactly?

The entire bushido culture of the samurai was based on the writings of a Chinese dude. Japan, China and Korea had been involved in cultural interaction, trade and wars for many centuries. The Europeans first arrived in Japan in 1542. The Tokugawa Shogunate periodically ordered all Christians out of Japan and there were occassional pogroms, but Christianity was never completely removed from Japan and the Dutch, Chinese and Koreans were still permitted to trade. The Sakoku (National Seclusion) polices were never as strictly enforced as modern myth would have you believe.
 

BelfastSpark

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
23
Sidewinder said:
BelfastSpark said:
invasion is natural, for 1 culture at its military and cultural apex to invade another, it human nature its been going on for thousands of years.In the case of Ireland being invaded well it was just our turn...Invasions are to the betterment of the race in the long run...
NURSE!

:shock:

Dude, you really need to up the dosage.
OK, Take the Roman Empire at its Apex. Are you seriously suggesting that Europe didnt Benefit from Greco-Roman Culture, its been the stalemate of western Civilisation for centuries in it laws and values, religion. Anthropology Suggests that Civilisation-technology moves from an east to west course of course you had civilisation in pre-romanic domains, however , do you honestly think that civilisations would have developed, Democracy and meritocracy if it wasnt for that eastward expansion of civilisation just look what Rome gave us in Technology the pre-romanic world prospered both Intellectually and technologically, and what happened when rome fell, Europe fell into the dark ages. All developed societies have went through some sort of influence or Invasion by a technological and intellectual superior people, its the oil so to speak in civilisation that makes humans advance from stagnant societies to more advanced, where would China be without Western Economic priciples? now one of the major economic powers etc, Sorry its not Social Darwinism,Eugenics or anything like that, its historical Fact, only most people see the negatives. when I say superior I dont actually mean it in the Nietzian Superman Sense
 

wizzard

Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2005
Messages
27
MichaelR said:
Actually Japan was forced to "open up" in the mid-19th century. Before that it was a feudal tightly-controlled (one could even say "totalitarian") society, with, for example, Christianity totally banned.
TheRussianslearned how quickly they advanced from that forcing to open up did they not.
 

Sidewinder

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Messages
442
BelfastSpark said:
OK, Take the Roman Empire at its Apex. Are you seriously suggesting that Europe didnt Benefit from Greco-Roman Culture, its been the stalemate of western Civilisation for centuries in it laws and values, religion. Anthropology Suggests that Civilisation-technology moves from an east to west course of course you had civilisation in pre-romanic domains, however , do you honestly think that civilisations would have developed, Democracy and meritocracy if it wasnt for that eastward expansion of civilisation just look what Rome gave us in Technology the pre-romanic world prospered both Intellectually and technologically, and what happened when rome fell, Europe fell into the dark ages. All developed societies have went through some sort of influence or Invasion by a technological and intellectual superior people, its the oil so to speak in civilisation that makes humans advance from stagnant societies to more advanced, where would China be without Western Economic priciples? now one of the major economic powers etc, Sorry its not Social Darwinism,Eugenics or anything like that, its historical Fact, only most people see the negatives. when I say superior I dont actually mean it in the Nietzian Superman Sense
Dear God, you really are serious, aren't you? You actually believe that humanity can only progress when racist nutjobs decide to run around slaughtering their neighbours! You don't think a society can develop a sophisticated civilisation by itself, peacefully!

Yer a friggin loon. Dangerous, too.

*adds Sparky to ignore list*
 

Cael

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,304
BelfastSpark said:
Sidewinder said:
BelfastSpark said:
invasion is natural, for 1 culture at its military and cultural apex to invade another, it human nature its been going on for thousands of years.In the case of Ireland being invaded well it was just our turn...Invasions are to the betterment of the race in the long run...
NURSE!

:shock:

Dude, you really need to up the dosage.
OK, Take the Roman Empire at its Apex. Are you seriously suggesting that Europe didnt Benefit from Greco-Roman Culture, its been the stalemate of western Civilisation for centuries in it laws and values, religion. Anthropology Suggests that Civilisation-technology moves from an east to west course of course you had civilisation in pre-romanic domains, however , do you honestly think that civilisations would have developed, Democracy and meritocracy if it wasnt for that eastward expansion of civilisation just look what Rome gave us in Technology the pre-romanic world prospered both Intellectually and technologically, and what happened when rome fell, Europe fell into the dark ages. All developed societies have went through some sort of influence or Invasion by a technological and intellectual superior people, its the oil so to speak in civilisation that makes humans advance from stagnant societies to more advanced, where would China be without Western Economic priciples? now one of the major economic powers etc, Sorry its not Social Darwinism,Eugenics or anything like that, its historical Fact, only most people see the negatives. when I say superior I dont actually mean it in the Nietzian Superman Sense
Are you an evil spirit returned to haunt us from the dark days of the 19C?
 

BelfastSpark

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
23
Cael said:
BelfastSpark said:
Nimrods historical accuracy is exellent, certainly it opens the questions and debates about the pros and cons of any cultural invasion, Many ultra Republicans will try to make a case of differance between the Irish Invasion of Scotland and that of Ireland and ignore that invasion is natural, for 1 culture at its military and cultural apex to invade another, it human nature its been going on for thousands of years.In the case of Ireland being invaded well it was just our turn, Nimrod makes more interesting points when he reminds us of how one culture becomes dominated by another in launguage and customs. Well this is also true of Ireland, it is totally anglosised yet with a deep underlying gaelic identity as well, history and anthropology shows us that nations-cultures that havent gone through Invasion or outside influence stay in a state of stone age, or a level of culture and sophistication that is eons behind those that have. in other words Invasions even in the case of Ireland-scotland are to the betterment of the race in the long run and sorrowfully bad in the short term.
Who are these "ultra republicans" who say the Gaelic invasion of Scotland was any different to any other invasion? I never heard them anyway.

And perhaps you could give a reference for these works of "anthropology" and "history" which show that any nation which hasnt gone through invasion stays in a stone age state. Does that mean that Japan was in the stone age until 1945?
Firstly What I mean about Ultra Republicans are those who fail to See that the English have been here in one form or another for 800 years, also that they believe that if they wernt, Ireland would be in a state of Gaelic Utopia and egalitarianism,That all Irelands woes are the fault of the Brits and refuse to believe that the success that is Ireland today is a partly product of English euntreprenarialship, laws and government, secondly Japan certainly was a closed society yet had little civil society ruled by corrupt shoguns until a 'western style' japanese army with western Technology defeated the Samurai.I think 1860s? The Indian Kingdoms of south America were at a stone age state by 1600 before the spanish came,although they had a somewhat civilised society and hierachy and to the natives misfortune they paid the price because of superior technology, nonetheless now they are modern states, honestly do you Think if the Spanish never came and they had no outside influence or contact at all, they would be at the same level as Europe?? I dont think so, ok it sounds Rascist and Darwinian but thats not really what im trying to say,only cold hard realities
 

BelfastSpark

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
23
Cael said:
BelfastSpark said:
Sidewinder said:
BelfastSpark said:
invasion is natural, for 1 culture at its military and cultural apex to invade another, it human nature its been going on for thousands of years.In the case of Ireland being invaded well it was just our turn...Invasions are to the betterment of the race in the long run...
NURSE!

:shock:

Dude, you really need to up the dosage.
OK, Take the Roman Empire at its Apex. Are you seriously suggesting that Europe didnt Benefit from Greco-Roman Culture, its been the stalemate of western Civilisation for centuries in it laws and values, religion. Anthropology Suggests that Civilisation-technology moves from an east to west course of course you had civilisation in pre-romanic domains, however , do you honestly think that civilisations would have developed, Democracy and meritocracy if it wasnt for that eastward expansion of civilisation just look what Rome gave us in Technology the pre-romanic world prospered both Intellectually and technologically, and what happened when rome fell, Europe fell into the dark ages. All developed societies have went through some sort of influence or Invasion by a technological and intellectual superior people, its the oil so to speak in civilisation that makes humans advance from stagnant societies to more advanced, where would China be without Western Economic priciples? now one of the major economic powers etc, Sorry its not Social Darwinism,Eugenics or anything like that, its historical Fact, only most people see the negatives. when I say superior I dont actually mean it in the Nietzian Superman Sense
Are you an evil spirit returned to haunt us from the dark days of the 19C?
No Cael, im not a Communist
 

Gombeen

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
76
Whether invasions are considered good or bad, the analogy seems a bad comaprison, since the Gaels from Ireland set up an independent kingdom in Scotland, so I get the impression that was more like the Norman invasion of England than the English conquest of Ireland.
 

BelfastSpark

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
23
Sidewinder said:
BelfastSpark said:
OK, Take the Roman Empire at its Apex. Are you seriously suggesting that Europe didnt Benefit from Greco-Roman Culture, its been the stalemate of western Civilisation for centuries in it laws and values, religion. Anthropology Suggests that Civilisation-technology moves from an east to west course of course you had civilisation in pre-romanic domains, however , do you honestly think that civilisations would have developed, Democracy and meritocracy if it wasnt for that eastward expansion of civilisation just look what Rome gave us in Technology the pre-romanic world prospered both Intellectually and technologically, and what happened when rome fell, Europe fell into the dark ages. All developed societies have went through some sort of influence or Invasion by a technological and intellectual superior people, its the oil so to speak in civilisation that makes humans advance from stagnant societies to more advanced, where would China be without Western Economic priciples? now one of the major economic powers etc, Sorry its not Social Darwinism,Eugenics or anything like that, its historical Fact, only most people see the negatives. when I say superior I dont actually mean it in the Nietzian Superman Sense
Dear God, you really are serious, aren't you? You actually believe that humanity can only progress when racist nutjobs decide to run around slaughtering their neighbours! You don't think a society can develop a sophisticated civilisation by itself, peacefully!

Yer a friggin loon. Dangerous, too.

*adds Sparky to ignore list*
I didnt say humanity progresses when the slaugter of humanity takes place, you said that, I said it happens to occur with Invasion, like it or not. Im sorry I have offended your functionalist sensibilites.But Ive never come across a society that has developed peacefully, always with the search for resourses conflict with other nations-civilisations war-conflict breaks out.Its in the Human Genome. How do you think Europe is at peace today? because nations went to war, a means to an end dont you think..however unpalatable it might me, im not saying I agree with it, but it happens, peace comes out of conflict!!!
 

holdini

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
35
Gombeen said:
Whether invasions are considered good or bad, the analogy seems a bad comaprison, since the Gaels from Ireland set up an independent kingdom in Scotland
Well the first crown of Scotland was the intermarriage of the Picts and Gaelic settlers, so in essence it represented the unification of these peoples rather than Gaelic cultural dominance.
 

Westie24

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Messages
35
Belfastspark said:

because nations went to war, a means to an end dont you think..however unpalatable it might me, im not saying I agree with it, but it happens, peace comes out of conflict!!!
I agree; if nationalists in 1914 had marched to Belfast to confront the UVF's threat of violence to deny total Home Rule there would have been a civil war between Unionists and Nationalists. One would assume nationalists would have won. It happened the US to stablise the society.

It won't ever happen now, of course, as we're all too civilised.
 

BelfastSpark

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
23
Westie24 said:
Belfastspark said:

because nations went to war, a means to an end dont you think..however unpalatable it might me, im not saying I agree with it, but it happens, peace comes out of conflict!!!
I agree; if nationalists in 1914 had marched to Belfast to confront the UVF's threat of violence to deny total Home Rule there would have been a civil war between Unionists and Nationalists. One would assume nationalists would have won. It happened the US to stablise the society.

It won't ever happen now, of course, as we're all too civilised.
Absolutely, and further to that, because Unionists had The might of the British army behind them, they got their way. Its a sad but realistic fact.
On another Note, you think if the Irish had of invaded England we would have done anything different than they did to us??
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top