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merle haggard

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Nov 18, 2005
Messages
5,434
its either that rave shite or boybands

isnt the demise of the trad thing a reflection on modern ireland ,rather than the fault of imro?
the trad things demise was exactly the same when music promoters were ignoring it in favour of imported foreign acts and the showbands who copied them . However when groups like planxty and Horslips managed to slip through the cracks they blew the opposition away . Promotion of established international formulae requires less effort and imagination . With profit the motive then its the lowest common denominator thats always catered for while originality and creativity is regarded as an unsafe bet.
Its similar to the Father Ted situation . The native powers that be hadnt the imagination or belief in a native product to even bother with it and would have been happy with an anodyne rip off of an already established english/american formula . Those outside of Ireland recognised its genius immediately and went for it without hesitation. If you think modern Ireland has no time for trad or trad influences Id suggest a visit to any fleadh this summer . Theyre bigger than ever . Native music requires promotion just like anything else for commercial success . Native impressarios and the like are just unimaginative and ...well crap and predictable .
 

limey

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Oct 17, 2006
Messages
20
Wednesday said:
There are a load of excellent Irish indie bands around at the moment. The problem is not that the music isn't being made.
Yes, it's underground and normally a band won't make the mainstreem unless it follows the recommended formula, like the Kaiser Chiefs when they sold out.
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
78
There's this great thing called MySpace on the interweb. If hiphop acts from Ghana can make great use of it, why not a trad act from Donegal?
 

erigena

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Sep 29, 2006
Messages
121
merle haggard said:
Its similar to the Father Ted situation . The native powers that be hadnt the imagination or belief in a native product to even bother with it and would have been happy with an anodyne rip off of an already established english/american formula . Those outside of Ireland recognised its genius immediately and went for it without hesitation. If you think modern Ireland has no time for trad or trad influences Id suggest a visit to any fleadh this summer . Theyre bigger than ever . Native music requires promotion just like anything else for commercial success . Native impressarios and the like are just unimaginative and ...well crap and predictable .
Se do bheatha Merle. Later this year RTE will broadcast a program making exactly this point, and quoting the same argument being made in the early 1970's.

So in some senses things are no worse now. As people are pointing out, there are other vehicles; myspace, cd-baby, weedshare. Perhaps the major difference is IMRO; and regardless of how technology changes things, live performance is always critical.

Consider the following story. Even if you don't like jazz, and you are Irish, you will probably be proud of Louis Stewart. He has remained one of the top jazz guitarists in the world for 40 years, and had a decades-long residency in smith's of Aungier Street. For reasons to the do with the ESB, creid no na creid, he was forced to move some years ago to Sheehan's nearby.

The audiences boomed. IMRO got to hear about it and asked Sheehan's for E600/year. Sheehan's argued they were already paying IMRO. “But not for live music” went the reply. So, as Louis pointed out, he could play his CDs at the venue, but not live. The result; end of gig. So Ireland lost another venue, and nearly its greatest (IOHO) jazz musician.

So this is not about trad, or jazz, or rock; all are suffering.
 

erigena

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Sep 29, 2006
Messages
121
We are finally reassembled in the original discussion thread. Thanks to Tumeltyi for digging this up Since we started, IMRO has fired its FF-linked CEO for “gross misconduct” and he is appealing. This is after having no chair and vicechair for a year; it gathers about $50 million annually in revenue from bars, musicians and so on.

Here are the central contentions ;

1.Ireland has switched in a decade from being a world power to a sick joke in music. The Eurovision debacle was merely the decoration on the icing
2.This change coincided with the emergence of IMRO. That also coincided, in turn, with the plethora of Irish pop/boy bands charting in the notoriously corrupt Brit charts. One of them even married into our PM's family
3.IMRO has absolutely no substantial obligations to its 5,000 members. Even if you can prove your material has been played a million times, it does not have to pay you. This has nothing to do with silly lawsuits for downloads, which is entirely a different matter
4.After a bureau of criminal investigations inquiry, several of us found that the thief of our copyright and royalties was none other than the chair of IMRO
5.We took action in the UK, and got some royalties there. We will get more.
6.In the meantime, the cops were called off by the DPP, who actually told IMRO (a possible defendant) weeks before they told the cops that the inquiry was over.
7.Several top musicians resigned from IMRO, including Donal Lunny; he, Nuala ni Dmomhnaill and Melanie O'Reilly inter alia are now with American rights organisations. They transferred with a heavy heart.
8.IMRO from 1998 has claimed the right to issue licences for, ie effectively to own Irish trad music.

Several predictions;

1.We will never hear of Louis Walsh, Mumba, westlifetc again
2.Similarly, Cecilia Larkin. Even Jenna Bush is "writing" a book with a Murdoch publisher; IMRO were (against their charter) collecting for Sky
3.IMRO will collapse within a year, leaving 5,000 Irish musicians and their compositions and arrangements in jeopardy.

Let us be clear; we are back to pre-Horslips days, and there is no Rory Gallagher, Phil Lynott, or anyone whom these crooks have let through.

I have put details of the legal action on seanonuallain.com, aware that p.ie may not be willing to take the risk.
 

erigena

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121
Coles said:
Best of luck.
Buiochas

We've won every round so far. Had to leave Ireland, but we are not the first to have to do so.

The issues now are about ensuring this never happens again.
 

Coles

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2,040
I remember being informed of some of the problems in IMRO a good number of years back by Steve Cooney. I can't remember the details, but I remember he was trying to address these issues. While I don't have any info beyond that, I know from his passion that the problems were affecting a lot of musicians.
 

erigena

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Coles said:
I remember being informed of some of the problems in IMRO a good number of years back by Steve Cooney. I can't remember the details, but I remember he was trying to address these issues. While I don't have any info beyond that, I know from his passion that the problems were affecting a lot of musicians.
Yes, we worked with Steve. At a certain point, however, legal action or "poking around their house" is the only way to go. Even at that, we had to hire a US and a Brit lawyer, and take proceedings in those countries.

So now we know what they mean by the country'n'western FF. It is a major moneyspinner for them, and the cops formed the opinion that IMRO had - ahem - roles outside the purely musical.
 

civic_critic

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Sep 16, 2005
Messages
119
badinage said:
netcomm said:
All over this country the Live music scene in pubs and clubs is dwindling in the face of piped music and so called DJs who wouldn't know a musical instrument from a record needle.
there's several reasons for that, but one of the basic ones is simply that most people go to pubs to chat and joke with their mates, and to meet members of the opposite sex, and live music tends to be played at a much higher volume, making socialising difficult.
You think trying to get laid is something which has just started occurring in the last 10 years? What kind of social life and experience do you have that you think going to a live gig at the local pub is somehow inferior for seduction and just all round good craic than listening to very loud piped music in a super-pub?

badinage said:
Pubs make more money when people are standing up joking and drinking, than when people are standing up staring at a band and drinking
The people who own pubs and who therefore control our relationship with the public consumption of alchohol and all that is associated with it - such as live music - are all almost without exception millionaires. Why should millionaires have the right to set-up a public house and place of gathering but not others, why them solely? Why can't people do so who are not millionaires but who could run a place responsibly and at the same time allow different atmospheres and events to flourish? Why isn't the ability to do this more democratic, more egalitarian, with the resulting richness that would issue from that?

Because there's too much money in controlling the Irish public's relation with alcohol, that's why. That is why we have millionaire gombeens inordinately repsresnted among the class of people who decide the nature of our entertainment. It is a cartel, controlled by rich men for their own benefit through a wholly unnecessary restrictive licencing regime whose purpose is to exclude certain kinds of competition and drive up the price of access artificially through restrictive practices. Somewhat similar to the unnecessary and restrictive licencing regime among the radio stations in this country, whose purpose is to create an artificial value that can be divvied up between a cartel of rich men for their own benefit.

Who owns this country? Seemingly the scum in Fianna Fáil and their fellow travellers think they do and the rest of us are here as sort of tenants, allowed to exist so long as we pay our way accordin to rules laid down by them for our exploitation and for their benefit.

So when Badinage says "Pubs make more money when people are standing up joking and drinking, than when people are standing up staring at a band and drinking" he is participating in something which is a whole lot bigger, deeper and more detrimental to his own interests than he is seemingly aware of.

But arragh sure I'm only a fecking begrudger, I should shut me hole...
 

erigena

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121
civic_critic said:
badinage said:
netcomm said:
All over this country the Live music scene in pubs and clubs is dwindling in the face of piped music and so called DJs who wouldn't know a musical instrument from a record needle.
While this is peripheral to the main theme, IMRO should not be allowed to charge for cultural events like trad music played in pubs. A DJ with copyrighted music is fair game for whatever the successor organisation to IMRO will be.

Btw, check out IMRO.ie; no chair, vicechair, CEO.
 

berkeley

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Nov 17, 2010
Messages
213
While this is peripheral to the main theme, IMRO should not be allowed to charge for cultural events like trad music played in pubs. A DJ with copyrighted music is fair game for whatever the successor organisation to IMRO will be.

Btw, check out IMRO.ie; no chair, vicechair, CEO.
This ended up in federal court in the USA with St Clair, to whom most o9f the 1990's Irish musicians had been sold out, not even turning up in court';

O'Reilly v. Valley Entertainment, Inc. et al :: Justia Dockets & Filings
 

Smarty Pants

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Jan 17, 2011
Messages
125
Agreed. There should however be a situation in this country whereby every child has the opportunity of a decent music education. A proper musical education* network would raise standards across the board.

*By 'proper musical education' I don't necessarily mean in any particular genre. I mean high quality instrumental tuition should be available in the different musical genres, as proposed by Music Network and piloted in Donegal.
we can barely teach kids Irish and Basic math, lets not fool kids into thinking they can become the next Justin Bieber or Hanna Montana,Keep music out of schools, its a complete waste of time, if you want your kids to learn music then after school and at your expense not the taxpayers :p
 

Urmentor

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Twitter
@red7778
The Villagers surely?
 

berkeley

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Nov 17, 2010
Messages
213
You think trying to get laid is something which has just started occurring in the last 10 years? What kind of social life and experience do you have that you think going to a live gig at the local pub is somehow inferior for seduction and just all round good craic than listening to very loud piped music in a super-pub?


The people who own pubs and who therefore control our relationship with the public consumption of alchohol and all that is associated with it - such as live music - are all almost without exception millionaires. Why should millionaires have the right to set-up a public house and place of gathering but not others, why them solely? Why can't people do so who are not millionaires but who could run a place responsibly and at the same time allow different atmospheres and events to flourish? Why isn't the ability to do this more democratic, more egalitarian, with the resulting richness that would issue from that?

Because there's too much money in controlling the Irish public's relation with alcohol, that's why. That is why we have millionaire gombeens inordinately repsresnted among the class of people who decide the nature of our entertainment. It is a cartel, controlled by rich men for their own benefit through a wholly unnecessary restrictive licencing regime whose purpose is to exclude certain kinds of competition and drive up the price of access artificially through restrictive practices. Somewhat similar to the unnecessary and restrictive licencing regime among the radio stations in this country, whose purpose is to create an artificial value that can be divvied up between a cartel of rich men for their own benefit.

Who owns this country? Seemingly the scum in Fianna Fáil and their fellow travellers think they do and the rest of us are here as sort of tenants, allowed to exist so long as we pay our way accordin to rules laid down by them for our exploitation and for their benefit.

So when Badinage says "Pubs make more money when people are standing up joking and drinking, than when people are standing up staring at a band and drinking" he is participating in something which is a whole lot bigger, deeper and more detrimental to his own interests than he is seemingly aware of.

But arragh sure I'm only a fecking begrudger, I should shut me hole...
Some of these are great posts - it turns out that the "music" in pubs is conveyed by a weird little outfit called "Associated amusements".....info, anyone?


Btw, this is the final federal court verdict....



Finally got the Federal court to uphold the default judgement;

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal...28656/68/0.pdf


That's $25k dollars 5% of the total tracks in "Celtic tales"

So Irish artists are owed $500k in missing artists' royalties alone - before we get into damages and mechanical royalties
 

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