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The Koran recognises the Jews' divine right to Israel


Shqiptar

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Joined
Mar 18, 2012
Messages
6,309
It seems to be an article of faith that Moslems are opposed to the existence of the State of Israel for religious reasons. Personally, I never looked into the matter much but I assumed it was something to do with control of sacred places such as the Al-Aqsa Mosque or Temple Mount.

Things are not quite as they seem however. The Koran is a subtly nuanced book and while it certainly does criticise Jews and Christians, it doesn't dispute God's promise of the Land of Israel to the Jews. Indeed, it's hard to avoid the sense from the relevant section that the Jews are being threatened to take the Land of Israel or else. When they refuse, God/Allah punishes them for refusing his promise by causing them to wander in the desert for 40 years.

Sura 5

21. "O my people! Enter the holy land which God hath assigned unto you. And turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin."

22. They said: "O Moses! In this land are a people Of exceeding strength. Never shall we enter it until they leave it. If (once) they leave, then shall we enter."

[...]

25. [Moses] said: "O my Lord! I have power only over myself and my brother. So separate us from this rebellious people!"

26. God said: "Therefore Will the land be out of their reach for forty years. In distraction will they wander through the land. But sorrow thou not over these rebellious people.


In Sura 17, God/Allah speaks of how he saved the Jews from the Pharaoh and repeats how he had promised them the Land of Israel in which he'd urged them to live.

Sura 17

Here it is God/Allah who is speaking.

103. So [Pharaoh] resolved to remove them from the face of the earth. But We did drown him and all who were with him.

104. And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (Of promise)"


In case there is any doubt as to the view of Islamic commentators, we have the medieval tract, Tafsir Ibn Kathir (the Commentary of Ibn Kathir - one of the most famous Commentaries in the Islamic world). Does he question the validity of the offer of Israel to the Jews? Not at all, In the scornful eyes of Ibn Kathir, the Jews "declined to join Jihad, defied their Messenger, and refused to fight their enemy".

Pouring further contempt on them, he contrasts their cowardice with the faith and bravery of Muslims at the Battle of Badr.

Compare this to the better response the Companions gave to the Messenger of Allah during the battle of Badr, when he asked for their advice about fighting the Quraysh army that came to protect the caravan led by Abu Sufyan. When the Muslim army missed the caravan and the Quraysh army, between nine hundred and one thousand strong, helmeted and drawing closer, Abu Bakr stood up and said something good. Several more Muhajirin also spoke, all the while the Messenger of Allah saying,

Advise me, O Muslims!
inquiring of what the Ansar, the majority then, had to say. Sa'd bin Mu`adh said, "It looks like you mean us, O Messenger of Allah! By He Who has sent you with the Truth! If you seek to cross this sea and went in it, we will follow you and none among us will remain behind. We would not hate for you to lead us to meet our enemy tomorrow. We are patient in war, vicious in battle. May Allah allow you to witness from our efforts what comforts your eyes. Therefore, march forward with the blessing of Allah."

[...]

On the day of Badr, Al-Miqdad said, "O Messenger of Allah! We will never say to you what the Children of Israel said to [Moses].



See source 4 for the full commentary.

So there you have it. The Koran recognises the divine promise of Israel to the Jews and in the eyes of one of Islam's most respected commentators, the only issue is that the Jews were somewhat less than staunch in their acceptance of it.

Who wants to break the news to Mister Ahmadinejad et al? Where's Digital Shariah when you need him?

Sources:
1. The Holy Quran: Skra V. Mïda, or The Table Spread.
2. The Holy Quran: Skra XVII. Ban+ Isr-+l, or the Children of Israel.
3. Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - The Speeches of Yuwsha` (Joshua) and Kalib (Caleb)
4. Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - The Righteous Response of the Companions During the Battle of Badr
 

Sync

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Aug 27, 2009
Messages
28,845
Totally. I've read a bit in the Koran where it oks Israel using cluster bombs, maintaining illegal settlements and shooting children as well. The vast majority of the world (and Muslims) don't question Israel's right to exist. They question their right to oppress a people.
 

ScreeOrTalus

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Nov 23, 2011
Messages
4,036
I was wondering where you'd been Shqiptar.
 

Bandheacseoir

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May 30, 2011
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659
The Koran, Bible and Tanakh say a lot of things - much of which is contradictory and/or bullshít.
 

FrankSpeaks

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Apr 18, 2008
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Totally. I've read a bit in the Koran where it oks Israel using cluster bombs, maintaining illegal settlements and shooting children as well. The vast majority of the world (and Muslims) don't question Israel's right to exist. They question their right to oppress a people.
Sync the Muslims are quite good at these activities themselves, bit of a stupid post by you really, I'm surprised.
 

Shqiptar

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Joined
Mar 18, 2012
Messages
6,309
Totally. I've read a bit in the Koran where it oks Israel using cluster bombs, maintaining illegal settlements and shooting children as well. The vast majority of the world (and Muslims) don't question Israel's right to exist. They question their right to oppress a people.
You might be right. Maybe they TOTALLY support the right of Israel to exist whilst TOTALLY disliking Jews.

Poll: 90% of ME views Jews unfavorably - JPost - Middle East
 
Last edited:

culmore

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Jun 14, 2010
Messages
3,184
Wasnt Jesus Christ and Mary and Joseph all jews themselves and as far as I know never changed, Jesus was crowned king of the Jews on his death
 

Shqiptar

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Joined
Mar 18, 2012
Messages
6,309
I was wondering where you'd been Shqiptar.
Aw. Did you miss me?

I've been trying to cut back on my use of the internet. No Facebook for me anymore, for example. I'm reading Good Books.
 

Rocky

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
8,550
Totally. I've read a bit in the Koran where it oks Israel using cluster bombs, maintaining illegal settlements and shooting children as well. The vast majority of the world (and Muslims) don't question Israel's right to exist. They question their right to oppress a people.
Saying that the vast majority of Muslims support the existence of Israel is a big statement to make and one I doubt. I really doubt it's the case in Arab States and Iran, only two of which support the existence of Israel and even in Jordan and Egypt I doubt the majority do. Obviously Israel was also invaded twice by coalition of Muslim States before it built a single settlement.
 

Raketemensch

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2009
Messages
3,128
It seems to be an article of faith that Moslems are opposed to the existence of the State of Israel for religious reasons. Personally, I never looked into the matter much but I assumed it was something to do with control of sacred places such as the Al-Aqsa Mosque or Temple Mount.

Things are not quite as they seem however. The Koran is a subtly nuanced book and while it certainly does criticise Jews and Christians, it doesn't dispute God's promise of the Land of Israel to the Jews. Indeed, it's hard to avoid the sense from the relevant section that the Jews are being threatened to take the Land of Israel or else. When they refuse, God/Allah punishes them for refusing his promise by causing them to wander in the desert for 40 years.

Sura 5

21. "O my people! Enter the holy land which God hath assigned unto you. And turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin."

22. They said: "O Moses! In this land are a people Of exceeding strength. Never shall we enter it until they leave it. If (once) they leave, then shall we enter."

[...]

25. [Moses] said: "O my Lord! I have power only over myself and my brother. So separate us from this rebellious people!"

26. God said: "Therefore Will the land be out of their reach for forty years. In distraction will they wander through the land. But sorrow thou not over these rebellious people.


In Sura 17, God/Allah speaks of how he saved the Jews from the Pharaoh and repeats how he had promised them the Land of Israel in which he'd urged them to live.

Sura 17

Here it is God/Allah who is speaking.

103. So [Pharaoh] resolved to remove them from the face of the earth. But We did drown him and all who were with him.

104. And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (Of promise)"


In case there is any doubt as to the view of Islamic commentators, we have the medieval tract, Tafsir Ibn Kathir (the Commentary of Ibn Kathir - one of the most famous Commentaries in the Islamic world). Does he question the validity of the offer of Israel to the Jews? Not at all, In the scornful eyes of Ibn Kathir, the Jews "declined to join Jihad, defied their Messenger, and refused to fight their enemy".

Pouring further contempt on them, he contrasts their cowardice with the faith and bravery of Muslims at the Battle of Badr.

Compare this to the better response the Companions gave to the Messenger of Allah during the battle of Badr, when he asked for their advice about fighting the Quraysh army that came to protect the caravan led by Abu Sufyan. When the Muslim army missed the caravan and the Quraysh army, between nine hundred and one thousand strong, helmeted and drawing closer, Abu Bakr stood up and said something good. Several more Muhajirin also spoke, all the while the Messenger of Allah saying,



inquiring of what the Ansar, the majority then, had to say. Sa'd bin Mu`adh said, "It looks like you mean us, O Messenger of Allah! By He Who has sent you with the Truth! If you seek to cross this sea and went in it, we will follow you and none among us will remain behind. We would not hate for you to lead us to meet our enemy tomorrow. We are patient in war, vicious in battle. May Allah allow you to witness from our efforts what comforts your eyes. Therefore, march forward with the blessing of Allah."

[...]

On the day of Badr, Al-Miqdad said, "O Messenger of Allah! We will never say to you what the Children of Israel said to [Moses].



See source 4 for the full commentary.

So there you have it. The Koran recognises the divine promise of Israel to the Jews and in the eyes of one of Islam's most respected commentators, the only issue is that the Jews were somewhat less than staunch in their acceptance of it.

Who wants to break the news to Mister Ahmadinejad et al? Where's Digital Shariah when you need him?

Sources:
1. The Holy Quran: Skra V. Mïda, or The Table Spread.
2. The Holy Quran: Skra XVII. Ban+ Isr-+l, or the Children of Israel.
3. Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - The Speeches of Yuwsha` (Joshua) and Kalib (Caleb)
4. Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - The Righteous Response of the Companions During the Battle of Badr
Anonymous Internet poster interprets the medieval rantings worshipped by his ideological enemies and frames it in a way that suits his position? Well I must say I'm truly flabbergasted by such an unforseen event.
 

EUrJokingMeRight

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
11,840
And in another fable the fairy godmother recognises Cinderellas right to go to the ball.



Usually little girls grow out of fairy tales.

Unfortunately many adults seem to have a problem when it comes to religious fables.

Let it go ffs.
 

Shqiptar

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 18, 2012
Messages
6,309
And in another fable the fairy godmother recognises Cinderellas right to go to the ball.



Usually little girls grow out of fairy tales.

Unfortunately many adults seem to have a problem when it comes to religious fables.

Let it go ffs.
That whooshing noise is the sound of the point going right over your head.

It doesn't matter if a text is true or false. If it's regarded as sacred by hundreds of millions of people, then it's relevant for discussion.
 

Jackass

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
2,482
God and his Bible/Koran have a lot to answer for. Grown men/women believing in a fairy story? Its no wonder the world is cufked.
 

Jackass

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Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
2,482
Wasnt Jesus Christ and Mary and Joseph all jews themselves and as far as I know never changed, Jesus was crowned king of the Jews on his death
If Mary was a virgin, who is Queen Jew? God himself?
 

Shqiptar

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 18, 2012
Messages
6,309
Anonymous Internet poster interprets the medieval rantings worshipped by his ideological enemies and frames it in a way that suits his position? Well I must say I'm truly flabbergasted by such an unforseen event.
The essence of good sarcasm is brevity.
 

trueman

Active member
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
104
as a frend to israel... stop the murder,
 
Last edited:

ScreeOrTalus

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Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
4,036
Aw. Did you miss me?

I've been trying to cut back on my use of the internet. No Facebook for me anymore, for example. I'm reading Good Books.
Commendable.
 

potholedogger

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
1,238
Did God mention who should have Antartica and Greenland after he realized the world was not flat?

It is a wonder he did not allocate Canada or Siberia to anyone!
 

Carlos the Jackal

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 10, 2012
Messages
1,236
It seems to be an article of faith that Moslems are opposed to the existence of the State of Israel for religious reasons. Personally, I never looked into the matter much but I assumed it was something to do with control of sacred places such as the Al-Aqsa Mosque or Temple Mount.

Things are not quite as they seem however. The Koran is a subtly nuanced book and while it certainly does criticise Jews and Christians, it doesn't dispute God's promise of the Land of Israel to the Jews. Indeed, it's hard to avoid the sense from the relevant section that the Jews are being threatened to take the Land of Israel or else. When they refuse, God/Allah punishes them for refusing his promise by causing them to wander in the desert for 40 years.

Sura 5

21. "O my people! Enter the holy land which God hath assigned unto you. And turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin."

22. They said: "O Moses! In this land are a people Of exceeding strength. Never shall we enter it until they leave it. If (once) they leave, then shall we enter."

[...]

25. [Moses] said: "O my Lord! I have power only over myself and my brother. So separate us from this rebellious people!"

26. God said: "Therefore Will the land be out of their reach for forty years. In distraction will they wander through the land. But sorrow thou not over these rebellious people.


In Sura 17, God/Allah speaks of how he saved the Jews from the Pharaoh and repeats how he had promised them the Land of Israel in which he'd urged them to live.

Sura 17

Here it is God/Allah who is speaking.

103. So [Pharaoh] resolved to remove them from the face of the earth. But We did drown him and all who were with him.

104. And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (Of promise)"


In case there is any doubt as to the view of Islamic commentators, we have the medieval tract, Tafsir Ibn Kathir (the Commentary of Ibn Kathir - one of the most famous Commentaries in the Islamic world). Does he question the validity of the offer of Israel to the Jews? Not at all, In the scornful eyes of Ibn Kathir, the Jews "declined to join Jihad, defied their Messenger, and refused to fight their enemy".

Pouring further contempt on them, he contrasts their cowardice with the faith and bravery of Muslims at the Battle of Badr.

Compare this to the better response the Companions gave to the Messenger of Allah during the battle of Badr, when he asked for their advice about fighting the Quraysh army that came to protect the caravan led by Abu Sufyan. When the Muslim army missed the caravan and the Quraysh army, between nine hundred and one thousand strong, helmeted and drawing closer, Abu Bakr stood up and said something good. Several more Muhajirin also spoke, all the while the Messenger of Allah saying,



inquiring of what the Ansar, the majority then, had to say. Sa'd bin Mu`adh said, "It looks like you mean us, O Messenger of Allah! By He Who has sent you with the Truth! If you seek to cross this sea and went in it, we will follow you and none among us will remain behind. We would not hate for you to lead us to meet our enemy tomorrow. We are patient in war, vicious in battle. May Allah allow you to witness from our efforts what comforts your eyes. Therefore, march forward with the blessing of Allah."

[...]

On the day of Badr, Al-Miqdad said, "O Messenger of Allah! We will never say to you what the Children of Israel said to [Moses].



See source 4 for the full commentary.

So there you have it. The Koran recognises the divine promise of Israel to the Jews and in the eyes of one of Islam's most respected commentators, the only issue is that the Jews were somewhat less than staunch in their acceptance of it.

Who wants to break the news to Mister Ahmadinejad et al? Where's Digital Shariah when you need him?

Sources:
1. The Holy Quran: Skra V. Mïda, or The Table Spread.
2. The Holy Quran: Skra XVII. Ban+ Isr-+l, or the Children of Israel.
3. Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - The Speeches of Yuwsha` (Joshua) and Kalib (Caleb)
4. Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - The Righteous Response of the Companions During the Battle of Badr
Your cherry picking of verses is extraordinary to say the least.

Of course the Qur'an speaks of the covenant God had with the Jews. At the time they did have a right to the holy land, because it was part of their Covenant with God. Their special status and covenant with God gives the children of Israel a great responsibility: the responsibility to uphold the covenant and abide by the law and guidance God has given them.

"We made a covenant with the children of Israel: "Serve none except God. Be good to parents, relatives, orphans, and the poor. Speak kindly to people. Establish prayer and give alms. {Qur'an 2:83}

Just as it provides details of God's favors and covenant with the children of Israel, the Qur'an also discusses the violation of that covenant. Verse 2:83 goes on to state:

"Afterward, you turned away, except a few of you, and you were averse."

It states clearly that the Jews, through the covenant, had a right to the holy land, and it then states clearly that they broke the covenant.

"But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on deceits: but forgive them, and overlook their misdeeds: for God loveth those who are kind." {Qur'an 5:13.}

They have been cast out of the holy land for their sins, even the Talmud states this:

"In Tractate Kesubos (p. 111a), It teaches that Jews shall not use human force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted Messiah. Furthermore it states that we are forbidden to rebel against the nations and that we should remain loyal citizens and we shall not attempt to leave the exile which G-d sent us into, ahead of time."


And is there not a religion section this thread could be moved to? Its not really current foreign affairs is it?
 
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