The Kosovan Domino.

Trampas

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Gadjodilo said:
seabhcan said:
Why do you think the US cares about Kosovo. They don't do anything for free. Kosovo can break away from Serbia but it won't be independent until the NATO occupation ends.
While you indulge in your geo-political ramblings and conspiracy theorising from the safety of your cosy West European armchair, might I point out that the Kosovans overwhelmingly welcome the protection they receive from NATO. It's their only defence from the same treatment that the Serbs dished out in all Muslim males in Srebrenica.

Mass Extermination.
Yes, but what about those who will soon need protection from the protected ?
 


G

Gadjodilo

Rocky said:
The US and the EU wants a peaceful, stable and democratic Kosovo to develop. They are only there because of what happened at the end of the 90's. ......
Exactly, it was outrage in the US and European countries over what the Serbs were doing (yet again!) that led to NATO intervention.
 

seabhcan

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Gadjodilo said:
seabhcan said:
Why do you think the US cares about Kosovo. They don't do anything for free. Kosovo can break away from Serbia but it won't be independent until the NATO occupation ends.
While you indulge in your geo-political ramblings and conspiracy theorising from the safety of your cosy West European armchair, might I point out that the Kosovans overwhelmingly welcome the protection they receive from NATO. It's their only defence from the same treatment that the Serbs dished out in all Muslim males in Srebrenica.

Mass Extermination.
So its a conspiracy theory to suggest the US wants something in return for its protection, but not a conspiracy for you to suggest

"It's all about undermining Georgia which DARED to break free of Russian domination"

and

"He stirred up the Serb minority in Kosovo in 1987 and used their "plight" to crack down on Albanians. That was what started the movements in Croatia and Slovenia for independence"

You have an interesting definition of "conspiracy theory"
 

seabhcan

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Gadjodilo said:
We were talking about whether the Serb minority was safe in an independent Kosovo - not whether Kosovo should be allowed independence.

Clearly Kosovo should be allowed independence and the Serbs are not safe.
 

seabhcan

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Gadjodilo said:
Rocky said:
The US and the EU wants a peaceful, stable and democratic Kosovo to develop. They are only there because of what happened at the end of the 90's. ......
Exactly, it was outrage in the US and European countries over what the Serbs were doing (yet again!) that led to NATO intervention.
Hardly, The US has no interest in the welfare of Kosovars. The used the serb attacks to justify an invasion for their own reasons. There is a lot of evidence that the US trained and supported the more radical elements of the KLA in order to provoke the Serbs into attacks.

(thats not to excuse the Serb actions, but to ignore the US motive is naive)
 

Halo

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yeee repartition, Armagh, Derry, tyrone and fermanagh to join the free state!!!!
 

MichaelR

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The Serbian forces in Kosovo were only policing proper order and suppressing KLA terrorists. (I did say in Kosovo, not in Bosnia which was a case of rogue nationalists spinning out of any state's control).

The US/NATO aggression in 1999 was exactly that - aggression; "ethnic cleansing" was simply faked as people were directed to leave by the KLA terrorists, and the CNN teams were there ready to proclaim things to the world.

Milosevic may have been a bad politician, but he was not guilty of crimes against humanity; the Hague court could not prove him guilty so he was murdered (or "let die" without adequate medical help) in captivity.

But at present, despite past KLA crimes, Serbia is not against an independent Kosovo. Rather, it wants a package deal with Kosovo independent and Serbia a member of the EU. What's wrong with that? Serbia is no longer ruled by Milosevic's team; why would Europe leave them out in the cold?
 
G

Gadjodilo

seabhcan said:
So its a conspiracy theory to suggest the US wants something in return for its protection, but not a conspiracy for you to suggest

"It's all about undermining Georgia which DARED to break free of Russian domination"

and

"He stirred up the Serb minority in Kosovo in 1987 and used their "plight" to crack down on Albanians. That was what started the movements in Croatia and Slovenia for independence"

You have an interesting definition of "conspiracy theory"
The second part of what I said is on public record. I'm not suggesting - by the way - that he did all this to get Croatia and Slovenia to declare UDI. But the Kosovo thing was all for the benefit of the career of Slobodan Milosevic.

Meanwhile, the Russians have historically regarded all the small nations around their perimeter as being their own backyard - the "Near Abroad". This imperialist attitude predates the Soviet Union by more than a century. Hence their involvement with anti-democratic forces in Ukraine, the banning of Polish products, undermining of Moldova, sudden increases in gas prices for former allies who aren't toeing the line any more etc.

Their proxy regimes in Georgia are just another part of this.

My conspiracy theories hold water. Yours don't. Give me one strategic or economic reason why the Americans would want Kosovo. Face the nasty truth: sometimes those Yankee Devils can act for altruistic reasons!
 
G

Gadjodilo

seabhcan said:
We were talking about whether the Serb minority was safe in an independent Kosovo - not whether Kosovo should be allowed independence.

Clearly Kosovo should be allowed independence and the Serbs are not safe.
Okay. But measures can be put in place to guarantee their safety. As it happens, they're concentrated in one small pocket in the north of Kosovo around Mitrovica.
 
G

Gadjodilo

seabhcan said:
Hardly, The US has no interest in the welfare of Kosovars. The used the serb attacks to justify an invasion for their own reasons. There is a lot of evidence that the US trained and supported the more radical elements of the KLA in order to provoke the Serbs into attacks.
Like I said before, why would the USA bother to do this? Kosovo has no strategic value.
 
G

Gadjodilo

MichaelR said:
The Serbian forces in Kosovo were only policing proper order and suppressing KLA terrorists. (I did say in Kosovo, not in Bosnia which was a case of rogue nationalists spinning out of any state's control).

The US/NATO aggression in 1999 was exactly that - aggression; "ethnic cleansing" was simply faked as people were directed to leave by the KLA terrorists, and the CNN teams were there ready to proclaim things to the world.

Milosevic may have been a bad politician, but he was not guilty of crimes against humanity; the Hague court could not prove him guilty so he was murdered (or "let die" without adequate medical help) in captivity.
I actually don't have the time to address just an amount of rubbish. What about the dozens of innocent civilans found slaughtered in Racak? How do you fake dead bodies?
 

seabhcan

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Gadjodilo said:
seabhcan said:
Hardly, The US has no interest in the welfare of Kosovars. The used the serb attacks to justify an invasion for their own reasons. There is a lot of evidence that the US trained and supported the more radical elements of the KLA in order to provoke the Serbs into attacks.
Like I said before, why would the USA bother to do this? Kosovo has no strategic value.
Kosovo has great strategic value - its a foothold in the region from which to control the whole of the Balkans.

The idea that the US acts altruistically is as laughable as the idea that Russia, or any other large nation, acts altruistically.
 

LTGuy

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Gadjodilo said:
seabhcan said:
We were talking about whether the Serb minority was safe in an independent Kosovo - not whether Kosovo should be allowed independence.

Clearly Kosovo should be allowed independence and the Serbs are not safe.
Okay. But measures can be put in place to guarantee their safety. As it happens, they're concentrated in one small pocket in the north of Kosovo around Mitrovica.
So why are Albanians so squeamish about letting go Mitrovica? Serbs are in majority there, the region is contiguous with Serbia proper, so "self-determination" applies to Albanians only?

I am sure that Serbs will accept Kosovo secession WITHOUT Mitrovica, provided Kosovars from proper Serbia move out and remaining Serbs of Pristina come + Republika Srpska is allowed to merge to Serbia. But, alas, a sensible deal will never be stuck as US clearly hates Serbia - a traditional allied of Russia
 

Keith-M

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I think they should look at how things got resolved here 80+ years ago; partition giving the maximum number of people what they want.
 

Gussie

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Catalpa said:
Gussie said:
Good post. One of the most fascinating geopolitical issues. If the Kossovan Albanians can secede, where does it stop?

The Californian Mexicans? The Bradford Pakistanis?

The Limerick Poles?
:D

Stranger things have happened............. :|
 

cropbeye

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Gadjodilo said:
Podolski said:
Gadjodilo said:
They're 90% of the population, FFS! If that's not a mandate, what is?
This was achieved through the ethnic cleansing of the local Serbs. Kosovo has never been independent. What next after Kosovo - lop off the Serbian province of Voyvodina? Derry?
Wrong, it wasn't. Kosovans have been a majority there for centuries. They outbred the Serbs. As long ago as the mid-1930s, the Serbs have been slaughtering Kosovans trying to wipe them out.
Utter nonsense.
 

LTGuy

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Why "non-sense"? :? OUTBRED is very fitting description of what has happened...
 

Kf

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Once again the EU and US seems to be going out of their way to ruin any chance of regional peace in the western balkans. Since the early 90's the core problem with EU and US policy has been to weigh up the effusive terriotorial problems on a case by case basis. this has contributed to the problem again and again. Now in 2007 they seem set on doing it again by recognising Kosova/o independence, without taking into account the knock on affect that will have in Strpce, Mitrovica, Presevo Valley and most worringly Republika Srpska.

The best approach is for a inclusive regional approach that address the very real problem of arbitary borders and for the EU and US to try to get agreement on their redrawing.

Somewhat dated, perhaps, sensible yes.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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I agree this is a risk but realistically you can't expect Kosovo to go back under a State that tried to wipe them out.
 


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