The legacy of Adam and Eve.

Nebuchadnezzar

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Dublin was made a city by pagan Vikings. It is still around, I gather, and serving decent Guinness at 'The Thing Mote', a sheltered establishment of some repute in that city.

The ThingMote is a reference to a mound where Vikings would gather to hold their judicial proceedings and debate issues of their day.
I fail to see any connection between the Thingmote, pints of Guinness or the days of the week(Saturday, Sunday, Monday are derived from Latin origins, not Norse) with the Norse story of the creation of the first humans.

Can you set out the corpus of art and literature relating to South Polean creation myths?
 


Nebuchadnezzar

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It's a great story, and a great origin myth.

Only a tiny percentage of believers of one of the "religions of the book" take Genesis as "fact" - even the Vatican has said that it is allegorical in nature.

In other words, it may be "true" but it's not "real".

And there's the problem for it's legacy. The story is allegorical, so it's meaning is subjective.

It could mean very different things to very different people.

It could be seen as meaning women are naturally a product of, and subservient to men.

It could be seen as showing women are less trustworthy than men.

It could say that women are more proactive and are better at taking charge.

The serpent could be evil, but also could be free choice.

It could show that god is fallable.

Or that god was infallible, it was all in the plan and so free will is an illusion.

It could be a tragedy for humanity. It could have been a victory for humanity.

The story doesn't have a fixed legacy. The interpretations provide the legacy, but the interpretations are subjective and selected by the interpreter based on the interpreter's preconceptions.

Was it the King James bible that turned pomegranates into apples?
AFAIK the forbidden fruit has always only been referred to as a nonspecific fruit within the Bible.

I love this particular interpretation of Adam’s thoughts immediately after the eating of the fruit.....

Adam saw perfectly clearly that his wife had been deceived and that the serpent had lured her into a trap from which she could not now escape. She will have to die, he thought, and God will offer to create a new companion for me, either from another one of my ribs or from another source. But I do not want a new companion. I want this one and only this one. There is but a single way in which I can remain with her, and this by conjoining my fate to hers. We will live - and when the time comes, we will rot - together.
John Duns Scotus, 1266-1308.

It expands on Adam’s reaction on being presented with Eve, Genesis 2:23....

“This one at last, bone of my bones,
and flesh of my flesh.”

....which brings to mind the joyous scene, the Presentation of Eve to Adam, from the 11th century Bernward Doors, Hildesheim Cathedral near Hanover.


2DD155AB-AB6A-44D7-9BE9-3F4BCBB4972C.jpeg


The celebration of shared being I think also inspired Milton’s great work Paradise Lost.
 
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Nebuchadnezzar

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These same doors also have a particularly wonderfully expressive and amusing scene, The Judgement of Adam and Eve by God....

785BE4B4-A4CF-462A-81EE-76F9164B0040.jpeg


God pointing at Adam, who points at Eve, who points at the serpent. Remarkable work from circa 1015.
 
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Rural

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To Summarise -

Once upon a time there was a man and a woman...

...now there's bloody millions.

I love the artwork though, the imagination is fantastic.
 

silverharp

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it is interesting to look at biblical mythos echoed in modern culture , for example

 

Nebuchadnezzar

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To Summarise -

Once upon a time there was a man and a woman...

...now there's bloody millions.

I love the artwork though, the imagination is fantastic.
DEDA2068-CC5E-4A5F-B18F-133600F12723.jpeg


The Expulsion, circa 1426, is another artistic landmark, remarkable for its vivid expression. It broke new grounds in the depiction of human emotion. This is the exact moment, (via his right heel), of Adam’s final connection with Paradise.

They are entering a very harsh environment, and they have nothing whatsoever to shield or protect them. From this perspective Adam’s penis, strikingly central in the fresco’s composition is less a sign of his virility than of being what Shakespeare calls “unaccommodated man”.

Masaccio died in 1428, at the age of 26, but in his brief lifetime he almost singlehandedly transformed Italian art. Young painters came to study what he had done and to emulate the revolutionary new techniques that gave the images such dramatic power. His Adam and Eve were no longer abstract, decorative emblems of human guilt; they were particular suffering people who had bodies with volume, weight, and, above all, movement.
Ref : Adam and Eve: The Story that Created Us. Stephen Greenblatt, 2017.
 

benroe

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It seems every remarkable culture had a creation story, the Abrahamic religions chose to make their God creator in their image, violent, vindictive, petulant and unforgiving, all obvious in Genesis. I would imagine the mythos was added incrementally as the story spread and blossomed into a full scale religion, but fundamentally they are just humanities primitive attempts to explain our existence without scientific knowelege.

I think these stories are now irrelevant and just a poor distraction from a much grander story, the story of how millions upon millions of humans struggled and lived short brutal lives and against all odds humanity survived and thrived, a story of incredible adaptability and cooperation that just leaves a story of a magic man with a magic wand, in the dust.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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It seems every remarkable culture had a creation story, the Abrahamic religions chose to make their God creator in their image, violent, vindictive, petulant and unforgiving, all obvious in Genesis. I would imagine the mythos was added incrementally as the story spread and blossomed into a full scale religion, but fundamentally they are just humanities primitive attempts to explain our existence without scientific knowelege.

I think these stories are now irrelevant and just a poor distraction from a much grander story, the story of how millions upon millions of humans struggled and lived short brutal lives and against all odds humanity survived and thrived, a story of incredible adaptability and cooperation that just leaves a story of a magic man with a magic wand, in the dust.
Agree so much with this. I was so impressed also with the thought and knowledge that we are carbon-based lifeforms, therefore a large part of our physical being is made of star-stuff from an exploding and expanding universe of enormous forces.

And further that after we die we slowly return to a full carbon state and when our sun expands in its dotage before collapsing in on itself the carbon that was in my body will continue its journey through the universe.

There's majesty enough in that. Part of me was a space-farer and will be again some day.
 

toughbutfair

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Do Irish Christians believe the story ? I know people used to believe the Bible to be true but do they still do so ? I assume few believe it so doubt it has any ramifications today.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Thanks Lumpy that’s an interesting counter image to Dürer’s...

...queen as an almighty goddess, heavily stylised and lavish in colour and dress versus Adam and Eve in black and white, idealised as the perfect humans created directly by God, unadorned, beautiful in the raw.

It also provides a connection with the age of discovery and a point I wanted to highlight.

Elizabeth’s right hand rests on a globe, on America’s I think? Dürer’s image was created a mere 12 years after the Columbus’ landing on Hispaniola. Writing to Isabella and Ferdinand about the natives he described them thus....





Compare that with Genesis 3:7....



Who was closer to the human form that God had intended? Native Americans or Columbus or Elizabeth? Images such as Dürer’s helped those who argued that these newly discovered people were indeed true humans in their arguments against those who wished to exploit and or destroy them.
I’ve been side tracked from #7 by various navel gazers....

....as I was saying about Columbus, on his third voyage(1498), he finally began to realise that perhaps he has not reached the Indies but had in fact ‘discovered’ a new land. He further propounded that the earth was not a perfect sphere but....

.....pear shaped, round where it has a nipple, for there it is taller, or as if one had a round ball and, on one side, it should be like a woman’s breast, and this nipple part is the highest and closest to Heaven.
He believed that as the closest point to heaven was the site of Eden and that the natives nakedness was due to their proximity to it. He believed that the reputed great rivers of the lands to the south(South America) were the 4 great rivers of Genesis. These notions were not confined to Columbus or the 15th century. In the 16th and early 17th century the Spanish chroniclers López de Gómara, Antonio de Herrera and the naturalist Father Jóse de Acosta believed that this might be so. The mid 17th century historian, Antonio de León Pinelo claimed to have proved that the Rio de la Plata, Amazon, Orinoco and the Magdalena were the 4 biblical rivers Pishon, Gihon, Chidekel and Phirat.

The belief that these lands contained Eden had an influence upon how the people of these lands were treated. The depiction of Adam an Eve by various artists (and by Dürer in particular) helped to establish a sympathy by at least some for these ‘new’ peoples. The Great Debate at Valladolid(1550) took place with the background of ideas concerning Eden and Adam and Eve’s children.

The Valladolid debate (1550–1551) was the first moral debate in European history to discuss the rights and treatment of an indigeous people by conquerors. Held in the Colegio de San Gregorio, in the Spanish city of Valladolid, it was a moral and theological debate about the conquest of the Americas, its justification for the conversion to Catholicism, and more specifically about the relations between the European settlers and the natives of the New World. It consisted of a number of opposing views about the way natives were to be integrated into Spanish society, their conversion to Catholicism, and their rights and obligations.
One of the main participants was the Dominican friar Bartolomé de la Casas. He was an advocate of the full humanity of the natives. He had previously been appointed by the Spanish Crown as Protector of the Indians. He also shared the belief that the Americas were the likeliest site of the lost Garden of Eden.

It was upon these gentle lambs that from the very first day they clapped eyes on the them the Spanish fell like ravening wolves upon the fold. At a conservative estimate, the despotic and diabolical behaviour of the Christians has, over the last 40 years, led to the unjust and totally unwarranted deaths of more than 12 million souls, women and children among them..... ....The reader may ask himself..whether these poor people would not fare better if they were entrusted to the devils in Hell than they do at the hands of the devils of the New World who masquerade as Christians
Ref - A Brief Account of the Destruction of the Indies, de la Casas, 1542.
 
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Nebuchadnezzar

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It's a great story, and a great origin myth.

Only a tiny percentage of believers of one of the "religions of the book" take Genesis as "fact" - even the Vatican has said that it is allegorical in nature.

In other words, it may be "true" but it's not "real".

And there's the problem for it's legacy. The story is allegorical, so it's meaning is subjective.

It could mean very different things to very different people.

It could be seen as meaning women are naturally a product of, and subservient to men.

It could be seen as showing women are less trustworthy than men.

It could say that women are more proactive and are better at taking charge.

The serpent could be evil, but also could be free choice.

It could show that god is fallable.

Or that god was infallible, it was all in the plan and so free will is an illusion.

It could be a tragedy for humanity. It could have been a victory for humanity.

The story doesn't have a fixed legacy. The interpretations provide the legacy, but the interpretations are subjective and selected by the interpreter based on the interpreter's preconceptions.

Was it the King James bible that turned pomegranates into apples?
One particular interpretation of the role of Eve that I hadn’t come across before is that of her as the initiation of written records. The backstory of Adam and Eve’s life post fall is contained within The Life of Adam and Eve, aka The Apocalypse of Moses, a Jewish apocryphal group of writings dating from the 1st c AD. Eve’s deathbed scene is described. After 900 years of life or so she summons her children(Adam having died 6 days before). She corrects Adam’s deathbed claim that death, suffering and sin were the result of her actions, telling her children that the consequences were the result of what both she and Adam had done. Then she initiated a key provision of cultural transmission that depends not only on speech but more importantly on inscription. The Life of Adam and Eve attributes to the first woman the idea of writing....

Make tablets of stone, and other tablets of earth, and write on them my whole life, and that of your father, which you have heard from us and seen.

If he judges our race by water, the tablets of earth will dissolve, but the stone will endure. If, however, he judges our race by fire, the tablets of stone will be destroyed, but the tablets of earth will be fired.
 

Enoch Root

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One particular interpretation of the role of Eve that I hadn’t come across before is that of her as the initiation of written records. The backstory of Adam and Eve’s life post fall is contained within The Life of Adam and Eve, aka The Apocalypse of Moses, a Jewish apocryphal group of writings dating from the 1st c AD. Eve’s deathbed scene is described. After 900 years of life or so she summons her children(Adam having died 6 days before). She corrects Adam’s deathbed claim that death, suffering and sin were the result of her actions, telling her children that the consequences were the result of what both she and Adam had done. Then she initiated a key provision of cultural transmission that depends not only on speech but more importantly on inscription. The Life of Adam and Eve attributes to the first woman the idea of writing....
I've never heard that before. It does make Eve a much more important archetype.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Along with Wexfjord and Waterfjord...
 

Watcher2

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The story of Adam and Eve is shared by the three great monotheistic faiths. Taken to be our common ancestors, symbolic, mythic or actual as you may wish, the influence of their story has shaped our notions of humanity for many centuries. Yet, their story takes up but a very small portion of the sacred books; of the Christian Bible’s one thousand pages or so it comprises a mere page and a half. The primeval couple have long been a subject of fascination for theologians of course but also for artists and poets. A host of interpretations.......a misogynistic origin story that legitimised male dominance or a depiction of two people, male and female, as equal partners in a heroic struggle against their fate? Do you consider their story to have been a positive or negative inspiration?



View attachment 20130
It could just as easily be depicted (although not in this fvcked up PC world) to be extremely misandrist. The snake (indeed the devil too, one and the same in this context, I know) is always depicted as male.
 

Catahualpa

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So I suppose the Big Question is whether there was in fact a real life 'Adam & Eve' ?

- that is a recognisably Human Couple from whom we are all descended?

Or did evolution follow broadly similar paths in broadly similar humanoid groups?

That is there is no one set of 'human' ancestors but multfareous ones?

That might explain some of the rather obvious differences between us...
 


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