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The Main Catholic Doctrinal Influence On Ireland, Jasenism Was And Is Heretical To Catholic Teaching


General Urko

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The Main Catholic Doctrinal Influence On Ireland, Jansenism Was And Is Heretical To Catholic Teaching

The type of extreme/insane Catholicism we were subjected to was Jasenism!
According to WIKI - Jansenism was a Christian theological movement, primarily in France, that emphasized original sin, human depravity, the necessity of divine grace, and predestination. The movement originated from the posthumously published work of the Dutch theologian Cornelius Jansen, who died in 1638. It was first popularized by Jansen's friend Jean du Vergier, Abbé de Saint-Cyran, and after Saint-Cyran's death in 1643 was led by Antoine Arnauld. Through the 17th and into the 18th centuries, Jansenism was a distinct movement within the Catholic Church. The theological centre of the movement was the Parisian convent of Port-Royal, which was a haven for writers including Saint-Cyran, Arnauld, Pierre Nicole, Blaise Pascal, and Jean Racine.

Jansenism was opposed by many in the Catholic hierarchy, especially the Jesuits. Although the Jansenists identified themselves only as rigorous followers of Augustinism, Jesuits coined the term "Jansenism" to identify them as having Calvinist affinities.[1] The papal bull Cum occasione, issued by Pope Innocent X in 1653, condemned five cardinal doctrines of Jansenism as heresy — especially the relationship between human free will and efficacious grace, wherein the teachings of Augustine, as presented by the Jansenists, contradicted the teachings of the Jesuit School.[1] Jansenist leaders endeavored to accommodate the pope's pronouncements while retaining their distinctives, and enjoyed a measure of peace in the late 17th century under Pope Clement IX. However, further controversy led to the bull Unigenitus, issued by Pope Clement XI in 1713, which marked the end of Catholic toleration of Jansenist doctrine.

How did we end up having it forced upon us? Was it through our priests having to be educated in France for the most part?
As Brown Mickey McQuaid rather famously said in the aftermath of Vatican 2, nothing has changed!
As a sixteen year old child I was quized by a redneck perverted bitter scumbag of a priest in his 70s in a confession box in Knock about my masterbatory activities. How often do you let the nature flow out of your body? Does there ever be a girl there with you to give you more pleasure out of it?
My point is that with pure evil tossers like those in abundance, psychosexually damaging children and women, how big a jump was it for many of them to actual do it! NONE at all! This kind of behaviour is indicative of people who are a very real danger to children! And of course according to their own rules, the thought is as bad as the deed, so there you are!:mad:
 
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drummed

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There we are indeed.

(The movement was a minor drama which ceased to have any influence on anybody from the 1700's.)
 
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Campion

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As a sixteen year old child I was quized by a redneck perverted bitter scumbag of a priest in his 70s in a confession box in Knock about my masterbatory activities. How often do you let the nature flow out of your body? Does there ever be a girl there with you to give you more pleasure out of it?
This isn't Jansenist. Just sayin'
 

Seanie Lemass

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So was Jimmy Saville a Jansenist?

You met a pervert, not an advocate of a theological position.
 
S

simeongrimes

If it was suppressed then why was it tolerated by the Vatican in Ireland. I think our real problem was that we identified Catholicism with nationalism. Loyalty to the Church was like a form of patriotism but with no democratic accountability. Given such power the Church inevitably abused it. It has left us in an awful situation. Atheism is all well and good for those who thing everything through but most countries have some kind of spiritual tradition which they can ignore except for those big family occasions. Ours is so flawed and damaged now that its no longer fit for purpose.
 

Eoin Coir

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there was a big Jansenist influence in Maynooth in the 1800s. Shaped much of the attitude of the Irish Catholic church.
 

Campion

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The Irish church was more rigorist than Jansenist-- a fine distinction, perhaps, but not Jansenism. Rigorist priests would deny or postpone absolution based on what they perceived to be imperfect penitence in those seeking to be shriven. By the 1840s the French rigorist moral theology taught at Maynooth was replaced with the more benign moral theology of St Alphonsus Liguori. The rigorist belief in human depravity remained, but at least people now had the comfort and promise of regular forgiveness of sin, which explains in part why hundreds of thousands of Irish people queued up for confession each week in the latter 19th- 20th centuries.
 

Astral Peaks

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Jasenism ? Ah for the love of Jasus.
Yeah, haven't you heard of Jason Donovan, He who shall be Worshipped in Perpetituity?
 
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shiel

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According to the op 'Jansenism was a Christian theological movement, primarily in France, that emphasized original sin and human depravity'.

Looking at most of our 'entertainment' industry can we deny that Jansenism had a point?
 

Campion

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The French Influence needs to be remembered.

The Irish Franciscans at Louvain - according to Rafferty* - were likely the main source.

* Catholicism in Ulster 1603-1983 An Interpretive History, Oliver P. Rafferty, Page 49 on
Its been years since I read deeply about these things, but the main row was between the Jesuits, who were seen as lax in terms of moral theology, and the Sulpicians, who were rigorist. The moral theology text used at Maynooth before 1850 was written by a French Sulpician named Bailly. It was placed on the Index in 1852 and replaced with Alphonsus, or by texts inbued with Alphonsus' more lenient spirit. Alphonsus' benign attitude toward forgiveness had a profound impact on the Redemptorists (his order), the Jesuits, the Vinectians-- the very orders who led the parish mission movement in Ireland after the famine. This meant that you could go to confession to a travelling priest who would never know your name or recognize your voice and be assured of perfect forgiveness, which was a big deal in a society surrounded by death.
 

Cato

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According to the op 'Jansenism was a Christian theological movement, primarily in France, that emphasized original sin and human depravity'.

Looking at most of our 'entertainment' industry can we deny that Jansenism had a point?
Is there something that you are trying to tell us about what you do for entertainment?
 

Cruimh

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Its been years since I read deeply about these things, but the main row was between the Jesuits, who were seen as lax in terms of moral theology, and the Sulpicians, who were rigorist. The moral theology text used at Maynooth before 1850 was written by a French Sulpician named Bailly. It was placed on the Index in 1852 and replaced with Alphonsus, or by texts inbued with Alphonsus' more lenient spirit. Alphonsus' benign attitude toward forgiveness had a profound impact on the Redemptorists (his order), the Jesuits, the Vinectians-- the very orders who led the parish mission movement in Ireland after the famine. This meant that you could go to confession to a travelling priest who would never know your name or recognize your voice and be assured of perfect forgiveness, which was a big deal in a society surrounded by death.
Apparently the Jesuits were weakest in Ulster. They are, for me and in the NI context, the most fascinating grouping within the Irish Church.
 

Campion

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Apparently the Jesuits were weakest in Ulster. They are, for me and in the NI context, the most fascinating grouping within the Irish Church.
In the 16th-early 17th centuries the Jesuits were most active in Ulster, as that was the perceived centre of Catholic political power in Ireland. Some of those Irish Jesuits like Rothe and White are attractive characters-- early modern Jesuits tended to be able to think creatively ("outside the box," as my American wife would say), and they had a great anthropological sense that allowed for enculturation wherever they went around the world... which, predictably, contributed to the suppression of the order in the 1770s. When the order was reborn around 1830 it was much more conservative, and more interested in providing a quality classical education to the sons of the middle class than they were in merging Catholicism with the beliefs of the Huron, the Indian Brahmins, or the scholars at the court of the Chinese emperor. But the 16th and 17th century Jesuits are absolutely fascinating.

You are correct that the restoration Jesuits were largely absent from Ulster.In the 1880s they attempted to open a house at Dromore, but abandoned it by 1890. They didn't have a regular presence again in Ulster until the 1970s.
 
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Analyzer

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In the years of the French revolution, there were a lot of hardline clergy in Northern France who were eager to get out. Some of them went to Belgium. The British authorities also helped many of them resettle in the eastern counties of Ireland, especially Dublin and Wexford. In the aftermath of rebellions, the British were eager that an element who were aristocratic by birth, would exist inside the RCC, to provide direction that would be more useful to the British. The British aristocracy were terrified at the thought of a massed peasant rebellion with French arms as had occurred in Wexford and Mayo. Therefore the British were delighted to resettle such clergy where they could influence the intellectual direction of the Irish.

The French clergy as a result were grateful to the aristocracy, and tended to take a cooperative approach to the British, and Dublin Castle. They had no interest in politics except to abide by British rule.

The one aspect of organizational theory that permeated all of them was the need for centralized control by the power centre. France was a highly centralized country, and still is to this day. In effect they advocated a hierarchical approach to authority. There were much better educated than the local Irish clergy, in matters relating to organization. This was a consequence of the fact that they came from rich families in France. In Ireland Catholics were almost all poor. Their instruction of clergy in the following decades resulted in a strong ethos of centralized control in the RCC. They also had very little tolerance for debate or discussion. Dissent was a completely unacceptable. This has permeated the Irish concept of authority to this day.

The fact is that much of the official rulebook with respect to authority in this country, was imported by people whose whole ethos caused a civil war in France for many decades afterwards, and perhaps even to this day. This is the complete antithesis of the natural inclination of Irish people. And this is exemplified by Irish people in positions of authority in North America. Previous to that point, the Irish concept of authority was very fluid, and never rigid. To this day, this continues, particularly in the rural areas (where interestingly the role of the French authority model never permeated the society).

Therefore whatever about Jansenism, we definitely need to address the presence of a flawed authority concept in Irish society.

[the same flawed concept still exists in France. Regardless of who is power, whether right or left. But that is their problem to fix.].

And we see this to this day in Ireland in the continual civil war in this society between the power centre, and the provinces, between reason and authority, and even in the way that people vote in EU referenda (which are incidentally about the centralization of power).
 
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Old Mr Grouser

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General Urko

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So was Jimmy Saville a Jansenist?

You met a pervert, not an advocate of a theological position.
Yes, but that sicko and countless more like him, who subjected children to psychosexual abuse in confession boxes up and down the land were given licence to do so under Jasenism! It seems it was quite common on retreats etc. for young people to be quized on such matters and in such a way!:mad:
BTW Saville was a devout Catholic!
 
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