The Old Boys' Club

monsieur chat

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What a weird advertisement, sorry, article on the Independent's website:

The old boys' club: Ireland's most influential privately educated men and the elite schools that spawned them - Independent.ie

How is it possible to write this stuff in 2016 without mentioning the elephant in the room (the "BOYS" in the title is a clue...)

Here's my favourite quote:
Like all great private schools, it teaches entitlement — which is not a bad thing. Live Aid would not have happened without Bob Geldof’s entitlement. U2 would not have happened without Paul McGuinness’ entitlement. It’s the self-esteem to know what’s possible.
One confusion though, are we supposed to be impressed by the examples of excellence the article features? Or is the writer cleverly taking the mick??
 


Spanner Island

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What a weird advertisement, sorry, article on the Independent's website:

The old boys' club: Ireland's most influential privately educated men and the elite schools that spawned them - Independent.ie

How is it possible to write this stuff in 2016 without mentioning the elephant in the room (the "BOYS" in the title is a clue...)

Here's my favourite quote:


One confusion though, are we supposed to be impressed by the examples of excellence the article features? Or is the writer cleverly taking the mick??
I saw this putrid sh!te being advertised on the auld box and I thanked God I gave up this rotten rag some years ago now.

My Sundays improved noticeably when I stopped buying the Sindo sh!te rag.

I would recommend everyone who may regularly find themselves in a bad mood after subjecting themselves to it does the same.
 

realistic1

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What a weird advertisement, sorry, article on the Independent's website:

The old boys' club: Ireland's most influential privately educated men and the elite schools that spawned them - Independent.ie

How is it possible to write this stuff in 2016 without mentioning the elephant in the room (the "BOYS" in the title is a clue...)

Here's my favourite quote:


One confusion though, are we supposed to be impressed by the examples of excellence the article features? Or is the writer cleverly taking the mick??
The following is the key piece from this article.

Rich people run the show in every country, but the huge difference between our private system and, say, that of the one in the UK, is that the wages of teachers in private schools in this country are funded by the taxpayer (although some private schools use a portion of their fee income to pay for extra staff) and not solely by school fees.

I have no issue with Private schools and would send my kids (if they were allowed admittance) to one of these schools. I have an issue with my taxes funding them. This bull ************************ excuse of the schools would close without funding is just an excuse to justify the low fees.
 

Jim Car

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I have an issue with my taxes funding them. This bull ************************ excuse of the schools would close without funding is just an excuse to justify the low fees.
Parent that send their children to private schools pay tax to you know and many of them (not all) are in a fortunate enough position to have to pay a huge amount of tax. Also if you got ride of the subsidies then the middle class groups that send their children there would be completely pushed out and they would become the schools of the super rich something they are not at the moment.
 

Trainwreck

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What a weird advertisement, sorry, article on the Independent's website:

The old boys' club: Ireland's most influential privately educated men and the elite schools that spawned them - Independent.ie

How is it possible to write this stuff in 2016 without mentioning the elephant in the room (the "BOYS" in the title is a clue...)

Here's my favourite quote:


One confusion though, are we supposed to be impressed by the examples of excellence the article features? Or is the writer cleverly taking the mick??


Once again "journalist" with an agenda, perpetuates the manipulative lie for own ends.

And I quote:

So, in Ireland, those who cannot afford to send their children to a private school must pay for the education of those who can.
Shame about the facts. That is an out and out lie. All schools in Ireland are private schools. None are owned by our government.

There are "fee paying" schools and "non-fee paying" schools.


Non-fee paying, means they (nominally) budget on the grants provided by taxpayers' and they have a teachers; salaries paid for by the taxpayer (up to a prescribed student:teacher ratio). Of course many of these schools still raise more money from parents.

Fee paying means that the school does not restrict their budget to the level state funding (which is reduced if the school elects to raise more money from parents). They don't get capital grants and they have teacher salaries funded at a higher teacher:student ration than non-fee paying schools.


A non-fee paying school transforms itself into a fee paying school through the tiniest and most simple act of sending parents an invoice for €50 per annum to cover some additional service they would like to provide. That is it.


And of course the lie that "those who cannot afford to send their children to a private school must pay for the education of those who can". Empirically, the parents of the national cohort attending non-fee paying schools don't pay enough tax to even cover the cost of their own children's education. It is risible to claim they (as a national group) are paying for anyone elses, in fee paying or non-fee paying schools.
 

nakatomi

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What a weird advertisement, sorry, article on the Independent's website:

The old boys' club: Ireland's most influential privately educated men and the elite schools that spawned them - Independent.ie

How is it possible to write this stuff in 2016 without mentioning the elephant in the room (the "BOYS" in the title is a clue...)

?
Yes no mention of privately educated girls like Susan Denham, Frances Fitzgerald, Mary Lou , or Margaret Heffernan.

No mention of Ireland's richest man either.
 

realistic1

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Parent that send their children to private schools pay tax to you know and many of them (not all) are in a fortunate enough position to have to pay a huge amount of tax. Also if you got ride of the subsidies then the middle class groups that send their children there would be completely pushed out and they would become the schools of the super rich something they are not at the moment.
No they would find the funds elsewhere, there may be some casualties, but for the most part a lot of these schools would and should survive without public subsidies.
 

gerhard dengler

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If a school is private it should mean that the school is entirely self funded ie. no subsidy from the tax system.
 

Clanrickard

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If a school is private it should mean that the school is entirely self funded ie. no subsidy from the tax system.
If that happened most private schools would enter the public system and the capitation grants, private schools get none, would go up. Ruiri Quin looked at this and said phasing out the tax payer subsidy from private schools would cost the state ,more in the long run. The state pays the teachers but the teachers would have to be paid anyway.
 

lion_bar

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Having attended one of the featured schools I can honestly say that most of us wallow in mediocrity once we get to university. I'm not sure that the fee paying schools are making silk purses out of sows ears or that there is a old boys network with a secret handshake and Latin oath keeping us up and others down. The examples used are the exceptions and probably come from pretty driven families which to me is what made them successful rather than a school.
 

Jim Car

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No they would find the funds elsewhere, there may be some casualties, but for the most part a lot of these schools would and should survive without public subsidies.
No most would not a few would. If a school cost 7-10 thousand then the fees would go up to at least 20,000. If a school it 17,000 - 20,000 then the fees would go up to well over 30,000 possible over 35,000. This is based on a comparison with UK schools and the cost of paying teachers privately. you also failed to answer the question on tax. I said these people pay taxes too, there for are entitled to the benefits ones of which is education.
 

Jim Car

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If that happened most private schools would enter the public system and the capitation grants, private schools get none, would go up. Ruiri Quin looked at this and said phasing out the tax payer subsidy from private schools would cost the state ,more in the long run. The state pays the teachers but the teachers would have to be paid anyway.

Ya every one was waiting in anticipation of that report came out saying exactly what private school defenders were saying so everybody else just forgot about it. Also a lot of people here refusing to acknowledge that people sending their children to private schools pay taxes too!
 

im axeled

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the old school tie works
the rugby affeliation works
the gaa circle works
as does the soccer
even the circle in the local pub works,
and may i add in that order
 

im axeled

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Ya every one was waiting in anticipation of that report came out saying exactly what private school defenders were saying so everybody else just forgot about it. Also a lot of people here refusing to acknowledge that people sending their children to private schools pay taxes too!
yes they do pay their taxes, they employ the best brains advailable to ensure that the amount to as little as possible, they get better value for them than the girl in the no contract job
 

EoinMag

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Having attended one of the featured schools I can honestly say that most of us wallow in mediocrity once we get to university. I'm not sure that the fee paying schools are making silk purses out of sows ears or that there is a old boys network with a secret handshake and Latin oath keeping us up and others down. The examples used are the exceptions and probably come from pretty driven families which to me is what made them successful rather than a school.
Same here, and agreed.

It's not all it's made out to be, especially if you don't particularly want to play in their sordid societal games.
 

Jim Car

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yes they do pay their taxes, they employ the best brains advailable to ensure that the amount to as little as possible, they get better value for them than the girl in the no contract job
You are saying the majority of the people sending their children to these schools are dodging taxes? Any proof? I call BS i would say the vast vast vast majority pay them in full thus are entitled to the benefits of their tax payments.
 

realistic1

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No most would not a few would. If a school cost 7-10 thousand then the fees would go up to at least 20,000. If a school it 17,000 - 20,000 then the fees would go up to well over 30,000 possible over 35,000. This is based on a comparison with UK schools and the cost of paying teachers privately. you also failed to answer the question on tax. I said these people pay taxes too, there for are entitled to the benefits ones of which is education.
If one cannot afford Private education, then they should not be attending. As a taxpayer I should not have to fund privileged education.

There is State subsidised schools available to all taxpayers and non- taxpayers, so that should answer your question on tax.
 

EUrJokingMeRight

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Once again "journalist" with an agenda, perpetuates the manipulative lie for own ends.

And I quote:



Shame about the facts. That is an out and out lie. All schools in Ireland are private schools. None are owned by our government.

There are "fee paying" schools and "non-fee paying" schools.


Non-fee paying, means they (nominally) budget on the grants provided by taxpayers' and they have a teachers; salaries paid for by the taxpayer (up to a prescribed student:teacher ratio). Of course many of these schools still raise more money from parents.

Fee paying means that the school does not restrict their budget to the level state funding (which is reduced if the school elects to raise more money from parents). They don't get capital grants and they have teacher salaries funded at a higher teacher:student ration than non-fee paying schools.


A non-fee paying school transforms itself into a fee paying school through the tiniest and most simple act of sending parents an invoice for €50 per annum to cover some additional service they would like to provide. That is it.


And of course the lie that "those who cannot afford to send their children to a private school must pay for the education of those who can". Empirically, the parents of the national cohort attending non-fee paying schools don't pay enough tax to even cover the cost of their own children's education. It is risible to claim they (as a national group) are paying for anyone elses, in fee paying or non-fee paying schools.
But there are millions of them.
 

gatsbygirl20

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Having attended one of the featured schools I can honestly say that most of us wallow in mediocrity once we get to university. I'm not sure that the fee paying schools are making silk purses out of sows ears or that there is a old boys network with a secret handshake and Latin oath keeping us up and others down. The examples used are the exceptions and probably come from pretty driven families which to me is what made them successful rather than a school.
I think this may be true. Many private schools have pupils from the driven, aspirational middle class and they pass these traits on to their children. Along with making the financial sacrifice of sending their kids to private schools, they are also more likely to pay for other enriching cultural experiences for them--language exchange programmes, cultural outings, private piano lessons, trips to museums, theatres, etc...

But it must be remembered that inside these private schools there is often a two tier system--an officer class, so to speak, of very successful, prominent students--captains of rugby teams organisers of debates, winners of this that and the other...

Then there are the rank and file. These are quieter, more average, less visible students who make no great mark, just drift unacknowledged through their private school as they would have in a non-fee paying school. Except they would probably have stood out more in a non fee paying school, and got more attention.

Private schools tend to focus on their top students, their top teams, their cup winners, those who bring honour to the school, push it up the league table, help them sell their product, flaunt their successes and attract more customers with more dosh...

This officer class, this top tier, is the group you always hear about.
 

Roberto Jordan

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If that happened most private schools would enter the public system and the capitation grants, private schools get none, would go up. Ruiri Quin looked at this and said phasing out the tax payer subsidy from private schools would cost the state ,more in the long run. The state pays the teachers but the teachers would have to be paid anyway.

ruairi quinn of the private fee paying school education with the privately fee paying school educated kids right? that ruair quinn?

Sometimes the state has to accept some extra , available costs in matters of principle.

We either believe in removing social barriers or we do not.

30 years ago non fee-paying schools could openly operate entrance exams ( which they did at the time in limerick and cork cities for a fact....in limerick there was even a "common" entrance exam with primary school 6th class students completing the equivalent of a CAO form with their second level choices in order of preference...) and were subject to little scrutiny in admissions etc.

The state decided this was wrong and while selective admission policies still exist, particularity in cities where catchment areas are less definable in absolute ( just like the GAA parish rule is more forcefully applied in rural divisions than in urban ones) this is forming a lesser and lesser part of a schools intake.

fee paying schools maintain this barrier and selectivity. Why is the state knocking such barriers down in the majority but living an exclusive area intact?

However despite my distaste as I have stated elsewhere if I lived in Ireland I would seek an option in a fee paying school for my kids.
Based on two very close relatives that attended "middle "ranking fee paying schools As far as I can see the benefits in terms of academic outcome and ,almost more importantly, connections. The two in question went into law and accounting with far more success that most folks I know of equivalent ability ( subjective on my part) from regular educational backgrounds.

And yes elite schools would still exits. Glenstal is not going ...but by reducing and reducing the the numbers the influence could , hopefylly b further and further reduced by virtue of network shrinkage.
 


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