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The People Have Spoken: "We want Change AND We want the EU". Time To Move On.

owedtojoy

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The centre has held, and not narrowly, but firmly and sufficiently. To an extent this was foretold.

And it may have been the first European Parliament election that was truly transnational.

hriqlk.jpg

Yes, Eurosceptic nationalist and far-right groupings (like Matthias Salvini's Lega) increased their vote share, but not enough to constitute a "wave". Liberals (like Macron's REM) and Greens had their own waves, of sorts. The two major blocs, European People's Party (composed of parties like Angela Merkel's CDU), and the Social Democrats (composed of partiies like Pedro Sanchez's Spanish Social Democrats) lost their majority, but have options of adding Liberals or Greens to their alliance.

In an organisation of nations, each is sovereign, but some of the sovereignty is "pooled", like contributions to a mutual fund. The simplest analogy is a military alliance that supports a grand strategy. The farthest you can get from that is the USA, where (in theory at least) the people are sovereign, not the states, and a central Federal Government acts and (where appropriate) delegates powers to the states.

More or less, the EU began as a Common Market with a pooled strategy over industrial goods, which grew into a Single Market for all output, with common standards and convergence for agricultural and industrial products. But the Union (now so named) has also moved inexorably along the route to being a Union of peoples, with a joint foreign policy and internal free movement, implying an equality among EU citizens. But, provoked by the Great Recession, and a Refugee Crisis in 2016, that has produced a reaction.

So, a shift, a change is sought in the EU. But change of what? And to what?

So what are the issues? The three top issues driving Europe are Islamic Radicalism, Migration and the Economy (in that order), see the above thread.

The Economy was the most important issue in Italy, Greece and Romania
Climate change is a major issue in Northern Europe (Germany, Denmark, Sweden,)
Russia in an issue for Poland and Romania (2nd in both), and probably in the Baltic states (data not available).

So there is no "one size fits all" panacea for Europe. Some want to undo even the Single Market (apparently), which seems like madness when China and the Unites States are starting to throw their weight around on Trade. Emanuel Macron, who will be an influencer in the new Parliament, wants to move along the route to a more federal arrangement, an EU of equal citizens. The future is open. But the EU has to move as its people want it to make a difference in their lives.
 


Dame_Enda

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The EU needs to strengthen Frontex so it can police migration in the Meditteranean properly. Spain should abandon plans to dismantle its border fence in its North African enclaves. I recall that when the Zapatero government granted a huge amnesty to 400,000 illegals, that the then French and German governments were not happy. Sanchez's Spain is the new choke point for the traffickers.

The EU should end the EU-Israel FTA which is allowing Israel to profit from the Occupation. The Commission should enforce labelling of settlement imports and if possible ban their importation.
 

owedtojoy

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The EU needs to strengthen Frontex so it can police migration in the Meditteranean properly. Spain should abandon plans to dismantle its border fence in its North African enclaves. I recall that when the Zapatero government granted a huge amnesty to 400,000 illegals, that the then French and German governments were not happy. Sanchez's Spain is the new choke point for the traffickers.
There are other issues besides Immigration. In fact, some countries like Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria are concerned about Emigration, like Ireland used to be. Their best and brightest are fleeing.

Macron, by the way, is seeking a Single Asylum Policy for Europe, and a unified Border Force.

Also, Europe needs to take a longer term view. Fortress Europe will not work long term - not if we are moving into an era of climate catastrophes and mass refugee movements. We need somehow to give people incentives to live, work and prosper where they are.

Think of a world where the likes of Bangla Desh has become uninhabitable due to sea level rise, and 100 million people have become refugees.
 

Dame_Enda

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There are other issues besides Immigration. In fact, some countries like Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria are concerned about Emigration, like Ireland used to be. Their best and brightest are fleeing.

Macron, by the way, is seeking a Single Asylum Policy for Europe, and a unified Border Force.

Also, Europe needs to take a longer term view. Fortress Europe will not work long term - not if we are moving into an era of climate catastrophes and mass refugee movements. We need somehow to give people incentives to live, work and prosper where they are.

Think of a world where the likes of Bangla Desh has become uninhabitable due to sea level rise, and 100 million people have become refugees.
I think Fortress Hungary has been quite successful. I agree though that we need to give incentives to Third World people to stay at home, through aid and economic development. Aid should be linked to readmission agreements

On Climate Change, our own government is part of the problem for not drawing down available EU funds to help farmers cut emissions. Theres a free market ideology going on in this case. But theres no free market in the wealthy professions from which many FGers hail like barristers.

The EU should extend the Single Market to Pharmaceutical drugs to reduce prices, and to the legal profession too. Elites have hijacked the Single Market to shield the wealthy professionals and Big Pharma. It isnt really a Single Market.
 
Last edited:

Apple in Eden

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There are other issues besides Immigration. In fact, some countries like Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria are concerned about Emigration, like Ireland used to be. Their best and brightest are fleeing.

Macron, by the way, is seeking a Single Asylum Policy for Europe, and a unified Border Force.

Also, Europe needs to take a longer term view. Fortress Europe will not work long term - not if we are moving into an era of climate catastrophes and mass refugee movements. We need somehow to give people incentives to live, work and prosper where they are.

Think of a world where the likes of Bangla Desh has become uninhabitable due to sea level rise, and 100 million people have become refugees.
Unlikely anywhere near 100 million will be displaced 10 max even with large sea level rises and they can easily head into India or China and apart from possibly the UK (probably not in EU much longer) Why should Europe have to house them?
 

Lagertha

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I think Fortress Hungary has been quite successful. I agree though that we need to give incentives to Third World people to stay at home, through aid and economic development. Aid should be linked to readmission agreements

On Climate Change, our own government is part of the problem for not drawing down available EU funds to help farmers cut emissions. Theres a free market ideology going on in this case. But theres no free market in the wealthy professions from which many FGers hail like barristers.

The EU should extend the Single Market to Pharmaceutical drugs to reduce prices, and to the legal profession too. Elites have hijacked the Single Market to shield the wealthy professionals and Big Pharma. It isnt really a Single Market.
Nigeria was the main African country that Irish exports went to last year, along with several other African countries and while we're exporting goods to Africa we are importing migrants posing as refugees from Africa, in particular Nigeria. Nigerians are officially numbered at 17,000 in Ireland although you'd have to be certifiably insane if you believed that to be the true number here. They are sending an average of 21K a year per head back to Nigeria and given that 43% of Nigerians here are unemployed that's a whole area that needs exploring by the CAB.

I think the whole issue of Aid needs a serious revamp, all it's doing is keeping corrupt African dictators in place and the only thing that changes with a regime replacement is the number on the foreign bank account that they siphoned off Foreign Aid money is put into. So long as there is money to be made and lets be honest, Foreign Aid is a huge money spinner for NGO'S.
 

owedtojoy

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I think Fortress Hungary has been quite successful. I agree though that we need to give incentives to Third World people to stay at home, through aid and economic development. Aid should be linked to readmission agreements

On Climate Change, our own government is part of the problem for not drawing down available EU funds to help farmers cut emissions. Theres a free market ideology going on in this case. But theres no free market in the wealthy professions from which many FGers hail like barristers.

The EU should extend the Single Market to Pharmaceutical drugs to reduce prices, and to the legal profession too. Elites have hijacked the Single Market to shield the wealthy professionals and Big Pharma. It isnt really a Single Market.
Fortress Hungary? A waste of money on a non-existent threat. Hungarians are scared of immigrants because Orban's propaganda machine keeps telling them refugees are Islamic terrorists come to rape virgins. Independent media does not exist in Hungary because Orban is afraid of it.

Meanwhile, Hungary's young people continue to flee Orban's "paradise", and the country has a labour shortage that will damage its economy.
 

owedtojoy

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Nigeria was the main African country that Irish exports went to last year, along with several other African countries and while we're exporting goods to Africa we are importing migrants posing as refugees from Africa, in particular Nigeria. Nigerians are officially numbered at 17,000 in Ireland although you'd have to be certifiably insane if you believed that to be the true number here. They are sending an average of 21K a year per head back to Nigeria and given that 43% of Nigerians here are unemployed that's a whole area that needs exploring by the CAB.

I think the whole issue of Aid needs a serious revamp, all it's doing is keeping corrupt African dictators in place and the only thing that changes with a regime replacement is the number on the foreign bank account that they siphoned off Foreign Aid money is put into. So long as there is money to be made and lets be honest, Foreign Aid is a huge money spinner for NGO'S.
Nigeria per capita GDP

nigeria-gdp-per-capita-ppp.png

Strictly speaking, irrelevant to the thread. But Nigeria will not always be poor, especially if it can stamp out endemic corruption. Foreign Aid is often an Irish part in substantial projects, which lead to long term co-operation and benefits to both countries. It is not easily portrayed as good vs evil.
 

owedtojoy

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Unlikely anywhere near 100 million will be displaced 10 max even with large sea level rises and they can easily head into India or China and apart from possibly the UK (probably not in EU much longer) Why should Europe have to house them?
I never said we "have to house them". OTOH, I hope we never have to address the issue.

The Horn of Africa, the Sahara and the sub-Sahara are obviously in turmoil, and would inevitably come to Europe's door, as (for example) a Trump war with Iran would.

We need to see is that a way we (Europe) can help stabilise those regions.
 

Lagertha

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Nigeria per capita GDP

View attachment 18321

Strictly speaking, irrelevant to the thread. But Nigeria will not always be poor, especially if it can stamp out endemic corruption. Foreign Aid is often an Irish part in substantial projects, which lead to long term co-operation and benefits to both countries. It is not easily portrayed as good vs evil.
I would love Nigeria to rid itself of corrupt government, I'm not going to hold my breath on that one though, I'd settle for them taking back their bogus asylum seekers before there are so many that they can form their own political party.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Jun 30, 2015
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Twitter
No
The centre has held, and not narrowly, but firmly and sufficiently. To an extent this was foretold.

And it may have been the first European Parliament election that was truly transnational.

View attachment 18318

Yes, Eurosceptic nationalist and far-right groupings (like Matthias Salvini's Lega) increased their vote share, but not enough to constitute a "wave". Liberals (like Macron's REM) and Greens had their own waves, of sorts. The two major blocs, European People's Party (composed of parties like Angela Merkel's CDU), and the Social Democrats (composed of partiies like Pedro Sanchez's Spanish Social Democrats) lost their majority, but have options of adding Liberals or Greens to their alliance.

In an organisation of nations, each is sovereign, but some of the sovereignty is "pooled", like contributions to a mutual fund. The simplest analogy is a military alliance that supports a grand strategy. The farthest you can get from that is the USA, where (in theory at least) the people are sovereign, not the states, and a central Federal Government acts and (where appropriate) delegates powers to the states.

More or less, the EU began as a Common Market with a pooled strategy over industrial goods, which grew into a Single Market for all output, with common standards and convergence for agricultural and industrial products. But the Union (now so named) has also moved inexorably along the route to being a Union of peoples, with a joint foreign policy and internal free movement, implying an equality among EU citizens. But, provoked by the Great Recession, and a Refugee Crisis in 2016, that has produced a reaction.

So, a shift, a change is sought in the EU. But change of what? And to what?

So what are the issues? The three top issues driving Europe are Islamic Radicalism, Migration and the Economy (in that order), see the above thread.

The Economy was the most important issue in Italy, Greece and Romania
Climate change is a major issue in Northern Europe (Germany, Denmark, Sweden,)
Russia in an issue for Poland and Romania (2nd in both), and probably in the Baltic states (data not available).

So there is no "one size fits all" panacea for Europe. Some want to undo even the Single Market (apparently), which seems like madness when China and the Unites States are starting to throw their weight around on Trade. Emanuel Macron, who will be an influencer in the new Parliament, wants to move along the route to a more federal arrangement, an EU of equal citizens. The future is open. But the EU has to move as its people want it to make a difference in their lives.
What a notable. Probably the post of the year in terms of Europe, in my opinion.
 

owedtojoy

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The op doesn't take away from the fact that theres widespread disillusionment among Europeans at the direction the EU is heading which is the opposite of most of them want or desire.
Where did that show up in the vote, or in the survey? Can you show that is the view of "most" of Europeans?

Yes, there is disillusionment, so it has to be addressed. Now is the chance.

I would suggest that, if disillusionment exists, it is with the outcomes of what the EU is doing. It is be crazy to weaken the EU as a trading bloc and destabilise the European economy. That would just make matters worse.
 

Lagertha

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Fortress Hungary? A waste of money on a non-existent threat. Hungarians are scared of immigrants because Orban's propaganda machine keeps telling them refugees are Islamic terrorists come to rape virgins. Independent media does not exist in Hungary because Orban is afraid of it.

Meanwhile, Hungary's young people continue to flee Orban's "paradise", and the country has a labour shortage that will damage its economy.
How do you know which ones are terrorists and which ones aren't? You don't and neither do the Hungarians. They don't want to take the risk and they don't want the economic burden. The war in Syria is almost over, Europe should not be taking any asylum seekers, Syrians should be going home to rebuild their country not part of an EU colonisation project. Merkle had to admit that multiculturalism hasn't worked in Germany.

Islamic migration hasn't been good for any European country it never will be and thanks to this governments ludicrous decision to let asylum seekers work while they wait for a decision on their application my town is seeing more and more Muslim taxi drivers and delivery drivers, like we had a shortage of those before they arrived on our shores. Just look at the Iranian asylum seeker who was gunned down in Dublin yesterday, up to his eyeballs in the drug trade and a hitman to boot. Yeah, we're very culturally enriched by people like that.
 

owedtojoy

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How do you know which ones are terrorists and which ones aren't? You don't and neither do the Hungarians. They don't want to take the risk and they don't want the economic burden. The war in Syria is almost over, Europe should not be taking any asylum seekers, Syrians should be going home to rebuild their country not part of an EU colonisation project. Merkle had to admit that multiculturalism hasn't worked in Germany.

Islamic migration hasn't been good for any European country it never will be and thanks to this governments ludicrous decision to let asylum seekers work while they wait for a decision on their application my town is seeing more and more Muslim taxi drivers and delivery drivers, like we had a shortage of those before they arrived on our shores. Just look at the Iranian asylum seeker who was gunned down in Dublin yesterday, up to his eyeballs in the drug trade and a hitman to boot. Yeah, we're very culturally enriched by people like that.
I think Syrian migration has dropped to nearly zero, and migration across the Mediterranean has dropped to low levels too.

As a crisis of European borders, it is greatly reduce since 2016,, though could flare up again.
 

Apple in Eden

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I never said we "have to house them". OTOH, I hope we never have to address the issue.

The Horn of Africa, the Sahara and the sub-Sahara are obviously in turmoil, and would inevitably come to Europe's door, as (for example) a Trump war with Iran would.

We need to see is that a way we (Europe) can help stabilise those regions.
I don't think this approach will ever succeed as they are destined to remain eternally unstable. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether Europe can retain the current relative calm and prosperity.
 

owedtojoy

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I don't think this approach will ever succeed as they are destined to remain eternally unstable. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether Europe can retain the current relative calm and prosperity.
In the 1950s and 1960s, the world's most chaotic trouble-spots were in East Asia and South-East Asia. The Korean War and the Vietnam War killed millions of people, caused a genocide in Cambodia, and led to massive refugee crises. Throw in the Chinese Civil War and the disasters of Mao's regime in China, then the picture gets even worse.

Yet today, those regions are stable and prosperous, not model democracies, but at least not slaughtering each other.

South America, ruled by quasi-fascist regimes in the 1960s to the 1980s, similarly moved forward to a state of relative prosperity and stability. It may be going backwards, but the potential is there.

While Africa is not perfect (but where is perfect?), millions have moved forward out of poverty, average GDP has improved, and it is the next region that will be the "Improver". However, climate change might impair that, as (of course) will corruption, military dictatorship and tribal rivalries.

Europe should be offering positive targeted aid. Not just for altruistic reasons - a prosperous Africa would be a market for European goods, like China and India have become.
 

Surkov

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Fortress Hungary? A waste of money on a non-existent threat.
Intelligence agencies have pointed out that there are approx. 20,000 terrorist cells in Europe already. I wouldn't call that a 'non-existent threat'. Just recently in France a nail bomb went off. By sheer luck no fatalities. The bottom line is you need to screen people coming into your country. A 'free for all' casual attitude is not just dangerous, it's deeply immoral.
 


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