The People Have Spoken: "We want Change AND We want the EU". Time To Move On.

Kevin Parlon

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PS Kurz may be no more than an "ordinary" conservative, borrowing the rhetoric of the far right, rather than a full on racist. We have yet to see.
Just want to pick this piece out and isolate it as an example of your habit of hysteria, hyperbole and outright fabrication. You're "allowing" that the Chancellor of a liberal, free and democratic country with not a scintilla of evidence of ever uttering a racist view nor a record of instituting racist legislation "might" not be a "full on racist". And you're doing this because you disagree with him on his politics. Disgraceful.
 


owedtojoy

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Just want to pick this piece out and isolate it as an example of your habit of hysteria, hyperbole and outright fabrication. You're "allowing" that the Chancellor of a liberal, free and democratic country with not a scintilla of evidence of ever uttering a racist view nor a record of instituting racist legislation "might" not be a "full on racist". And you're doing this because you disagree with him on his politics. Disgraceful.
Yadda, yadda, it is all about me and my manifold faults, again. I was mean to good old Sebastian Kurz. Aw.

I just observed that he may have used an old tactic of Conservative politicians, of borrowing the rhetoric of the far-right, but not their policies. Besides, stereotyping Africa and Africans as a breeding mass of humanity threatening our "culture" is an old racist trope.

TBH, I though I was giving him his just deserts, and was being rather nice.
 
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owedtojoy

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That already cannot feed itself.

You're wrong. Again. Most are from West Africa.


Kurz is not pointing any fingers. He's simply observing reality: A population explosion is underway in an unstable region on our immediate doorstep with a history of being reliably unable to feed itself. This is what responsible leaders do; face up to reality as opposed to soft-peddling a soft-focus, reality-bending fiction such as you finish off your post with:
Africa is not a "region", it is a continent, several times larger than Europe. It probably can feed itself, though many countries need to export crops for foreign currency (like Ireland in 1845). It is in mid-century that the danger lies.


You say "population explosion", I say Africans are living longer, happier lives than they have for centuries, despite that fact that some areas are suffering from drought and civil wars. Nigeria and Ghana, for example, are not far behind India and Pakistan in average income and lifespan. South Africa is on a par with Brazil on an economic scale.

I say "glass half full", and we can work with Africa to help it move forward. The EU is Africa's largest trading partner, though it is being overtaken by China and India. Africa is well endowed with natural resources, and its education levels are now at their highest ever. It has potential.

The smartest politicians are the ones who work on long-term problems to make sure they do not grow larger.

The big threat I see is climate change, which will hit Africa harder than other continents. African countries are the least resilient. But since you think climate change is a non-problem, you clearly have no concerns about that at all.
 
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Kevin Parlon

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Yadda, yadda, it is all about me and my manifold faults, again. I was mean to good old Sebastian Kurz. Aw.
No, it was about me drawing attention to the fact that you're the kind of person who calls people with whom you don't agree "racists". Which makes you an idiot. I just wanted to make sure we didn't skip over noticing this was you doing that again.
 
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Se0samh

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No, it was about me highlighting you're the kind of person who calls people who don't agree you racists. Which makes you an idiot. I just wanted to make sure we didn't skip over noticing this was you doing that again.

Breathe comrade, breathe....
 

owedtojoy

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No, it was about me drawing attention to the fact that you're the kind of person who calls people with whom you don't agree "racists". Which makes you an idiot. I just wanted to make sure we didn't skip over noticing this was you doing that again.
Is there a part of "stereotyping Africa and Africans as a breeding mass of humanity threatening our "culture" is an old racist trope. " that is open to misunderstanding? Africa is as diverse in cultures and languages as Europe is.

If the cap fits .... wear it ...

There is a view of Sebastian Kurz that he is nothing more than a popularity-seeker, all style and no substance. Chances are, he will be on the Green bandwagon next, to get them into coalition.


Kurz leans towards Greens after far-right losses in Austria vote
 

owedtojoy

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Unlikely. Spain even swung left after the Madrid atrocity, effectively giving the bombers what they asked for.
One reason Spain swung left in the 2003 election was disgust at the Government's opportunism in trying to blame the Madrid bombings on the Basques.

And the Spanish people were being sensible, as events transpired, because Iraq had nothing to do with the Madrid attacks. if a few hundred Spanish soldiers had got killed in Iraq, what possible good would it have achieved?

As I said, it will be interesting to see how the far-right perform.

Incidentally, Spain's neighbour Portugal is also holding elections soon, on October 6th, in fact..


My daughter spent some time working in Portugal, and it seems to have a lot of immigrants or guest workers from Argentina and Brazil. I would hazed a guess that it has more immigrants than Austria, Hungary or Poland, yet the far-right have hardly any support there.
 

Kevin Parlon

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More evidence of the phantom centrist, Owed-Imagined-into-existence pro-EU surge. The Polish conservative vote grew by 18%.
 

owedtojoy

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More evidence of the phantom centrist, Owed-Imagined-into-existence pro-EU surge. The Polish conservative vote grew by 18%.
Poland is at the opposite end of the spectrum to Portugal - Poland has virtually no immigration, its bigger problem is emigration. Yet Poland has much more anti-immigration rhetoric.

Plus, scapegoating of non-existing immigrants was replaced for this election by attacks on Poland's LGBTQ community, who do exist. But they did not silently accept being demonised, and a vocal pro-LGBTQ minority emerged openly.


Indeed, the outcome is a sad result for European democracy. But there are grounds for hope also. The Law and Justice Party lost control of the Senate. Liberal parties made sweeping gains in towns and cities, and the picture of Poland that emerges is of a pronounced urban-rural divide. That is much like Ireland in the 1960s to 1980s, when any action for gay rights, availability of contraception or abortion were decried as "the liberal agenda".


[Law and Justice] will not enjoy the free rein it has had since 2015 in the lower house either, and could well be forced to seek the backing of MPs from a new far-right group, Confederation, on more controversial policies.

In Hungary, meanwhile, the hardline prime minister, Viktor Orbán, suffered his greatest political setback in a decade when a pro-European, centre-left challenger ousted the Fidesz-backed incumbent as mayor of Budapest by 51% to 44%.
 

RasherHash

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This could have been written especially for the EU...

“If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it.”
― Mark Twain
 

cobhguy

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This could have been written especially for the EU...

“If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it.”
― Mark Twain
Any examples where that is true.

An example of where that is not true of the EU is one, the Constitution of the EU treaty, if was rejected and then scraped by the EU.

Another was the Lisbon treaty Ireland rejected it and the EU had to change parts and give legal guarantees to the meaning of parts to get it past.

So two examples where voting changed the outcome.
 

tsarbomb

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Any examples where that is true.

An example of where that is not true of the EU is one, the Constitution of the EU treaty, if was rejected and then scraped by the EU.

Another was the Lisbon treaty Ireland rejected it and the EU had to change parts and give legal guarantees to the meaning of parts to get it past.

So two examples where voting changed the outcome.
What parts of the Lisbon Treaty were changed as a result of its rejection by the Irish electorate?
 

RasherHash

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What parts of the Lisbon Treaty were changed as a result of its rejection by the Irish electorate?
A couple of sideline issues were altered to give the elite an excuse to make us vote until we got the 'right' answer 🙄
 

cobhguy

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What parts of the Lisbon Treaty were changed as a result of its rejection by the Irish electorate?
"Agreement on the composition of the European Commission This amendment to the Lisbon Treaty ensures that Ireland will retain a Commissioner. The Lisbon Treaty amends the provision in the Nice Treaty that requires the EU to reduce the size of the Commission to include fewer Commissioners than the number of Member States (i.e. at most 26 in a Union of 27)."

"
ANALYSIS OF voting behaviour in the Lisbon Treaty referendum last June concludes that concerns about the loss of a permanent Irish commissioner were a “substantial consideration” in leading people to vote No.
"
 

tsarbomb

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"Agreement on the composition of the European Commission This amendment to the Lisbon Treaty ensures that Ireland will retain a Commissioner. The Lisbon Treaty amends the provision in the Nice Treaty that requires the EU to reduce the size of the Commission to include fewer Commissioners than the number of Member States (i.e. at most 26 in a Union of 27)."

"
ANALYSIS OF voting behaviour in the Lisbon Treaty referendum last June concludes that concerns about the loss of a permanent Irish commissioner were a “substantial consideration” in leading people to vote No.
"
What is that? Link etc?
 

cobhguy

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What is that? Link etc?

 

tsarbomb

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Thanks.

From the second link...


"The Guarantees respect the two key conditions identified by the Member States: (1) the Lisbon Treaty remains unaltered" (p.1)
 

cobhguy

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Thanks.

From the second link...


"The Guarantees respect the two key conditions identified by the Member States: (1) the Lisbon Treaty remains unaltered" (p.1)
I will accept that the written text in the treaty didnt change, but the text was not written like laws but in articles more like policies that have to be interpertated. The legal Guarantees give legal assurances that these articles could not be interpertated or used in a certain way, which changed their meaning.

So the example was, the treaty had the power to reduce the amount of commissioners and Ireland could of lost its one. The legal Guarantees stopped that from happening, changing what the treaty was meant to do, without changing the written text.
 
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RasherHash

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I will accept that the written text in the treaty didnt change, but the text was not written like laws but in articles more like policies that have to be interpertated. The legal Guarantees give legal assurances that these articles could not be interpertated or used in a certain way, which changed their meaning.

So the example was, the treaty had the power to reduce the amount of commissioners and Ireland could of lost its one. The legal Guarantees stopped that from happening, changing what the treaty was meant to do, without changing the written text.
In other words, it was a fudge.

The railroading of the people of Europe into a superstate, with an army, that can 'take on the US and China' goes on...unabatted.

A very sad day for democracy.
 

owedtojoy

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Where stands the EU now?

Not too badly, it seems. Even the British seem to be having second thoughts.


Samples in these countries were asked how they would vote in a referendum on EU membership.

CNN_EU_Poll_Jul20(1).png

Norway is a Single Market member, Serbia and Montenegro are applicants.

The solid votes in Hungary and Poland are notable, two countries that are in dispute with the EU over aspects of their governance.

The UK result in an eye-opener after the Tory landslide 6 months ago. But remember the British were told that (a) negotiations to leave would be short and easy, and (b) they could "have their cake and eat it" i.e enjoy the benefits of membership with no responsibility. Another poll recently had a similar result.


That is almost a thread to itself. However, it is too early to be complacent about the EU future. Some Europeans have been seriously disappointed about the EU and the Coronavirus. However, this has not meant an increase in trust of national governments, quite the reverse. It is as if countries wanted the EU to step up, and are disillusioned it did not.


Two surveys that seem to mean that the people of Europe want more, not less, of the EU.
 


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