• It has come to our attention that some users may have been "banned" when they tried to change their passwords after the site was hacked due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software. This would have occurred around the end of February and does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you believe you were affected by this, please contact a staff member or use the Contact us link at the bottom of any forum page.

The Preamble to Bunreacht na hÉireann: Time to Change?


With regard to any amendment to the preamble of the Constitution, would you prefer to:

  • Leave it as it is (I approve of the current text)

    Votes: 55 17.1%
  • Leave it as it is (It's not worth the hassle)

    Votes: 39 12.1%
  • Change to long secular preamble

    Votes: 17 5.3%
  • Change to a short secular preamble

    Votes: 160 49.8%
  • Frankly, my dear, I just don't give a damn

    Votes: 50 15.6%

  • Total voters
    321
  • Poll closed .

ruserious

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
29,599
In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,We, the people of Éire,Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

The Preamble to the constitution is both outdated and irrelevant.

My first gripe is with the following:
In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority
Why does a State need to derive its authority/legitimacy from a something which is held as a belief?

Surely, authority would be best derived from something which is fact, like the citizens. In fact, a constitution which pays homage to its citizens in such a way would be the ultimate sign of derived authority. It would be unoffensive and not controversial.

Instead, we have a particular belief which is being endowed on us (which is against Article 44.2.2) in the context of the Preamble which suggests that authority in the state comes from a supernatural power which is open to debate and ridicule.

Authority is important.

Uphold it by honouring its origin from the sovereign citizen and not a deity. This would serve the entire nation, rather than just those who believe in a supernatural being.

And then we have this cookie:
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ
What obligations exactly? We all have the freedom of religion and lack there of. What obligations do non-believers have to someone called Jesus? Why is state forcing us to have an obligation to someone other people believe is the son of a deity?

Its ridiculous.
 

eurlex

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2013
Messages
9,185
It could easily be changed to this.

We, the people of Éire, Gratefully remembering our forebears' centuries of trial and their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation, And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.
 

ruserious

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
29,599
There's still time to make a submission to the constitutional convention. Give Athiest Ireland a call.
I believe that 2ndRepublic are planning on raising the matter.
 

ruserious

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
29,599
It could easily be changed to this.

We, the people of Éire, Gratefully remembering our forebears' centuries of trial and their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation, And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

Lovely. Non offensive and honours our people both past and present.
 

discentes

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Messages
2,717
I think pretty much everyone agrees it's stupid. It's just that it has such a minimal jurisprudential effect (now, that wasn't always the case), that nobody's bothered to changed it.
 

Mr. Bumble

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
18,254
In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,We, the people of Éire,Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

The Preamble to the constitution is both outdated and irrelevant.

My first gripe is with the following:


Why does a State need to derive its authority/legitimacy from a something which is held as a belief?

Surely, authority would be best derived from something which is fact, like the citizens. In fact, a constitution which pays homage to its citizens in such a way would be the ultimate sign of derived authority. It would be unoffensive and not controversial.

Instead, we have a particular belief which is being endowed on us (which is against Article 44.2.2) in the context of the Preamble which suggests that authority in the state comes from a supernatural power which is open to debate and ridicule.

Authority is important.

Uphold it by honouring its origin from the sovereign citizen and not a deity. This would serve the entire nation, rather than just those who believe in a supernatural being.

And then we have this cookie:


What obligations exactly? We all have the freedom of religion and lack there of. What obligations do non-believers have to someone called Jesus? Why is state forcing us to have an obligation to someone other people believe is the son of a deity?

Its ridiculous.
All you need to do is replace 'Trinity' with 'Troika'.
 

cabledude

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2011
Messages
6,362
Obama had the same idea yesterday on the 150th anniversary of the Gettysburg address.....


[video=youtube;2P8DeSpBU98]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P8DeSpBU98[/video]
 

cabledude

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2011
Messages
6,362
Change the Most Holy Trinity to Allah and I'll be happy.
Don't think that'll work either. O.P. is looking for a secular constitution here. (I think)
 

Cato

Moderator
Joined
Aug 21, 2005
Messages
20,561
Why all the waffle? Keep it simple:

We, the people of Ireland, do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.
 

Cruimh

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2010
Messages
85,704
It could easily be changed to this.

We, the people of Éire, Gratefully remembering our forebears' centuries of trial and their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation, And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.
Yep - fine for the 26 county state.
 

seabhcan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
14,327
My version:

Here we are, Born to be kings, We're the princes of the universe, Here we belong, Fighting to survive, In a world with the darkest powers, And here we are, We're the princes of the universe, Here we belong, Fighting for survival, We've come to be the rules of your world, I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings, I have no rival, No man can be my equal, Take me to the future of your world

And now, the Constitution:
 

ruserious

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
29,599
But this then become problematic: the unity of our country restored
the unity of our country peacefully restored


Better? It would then reflect the GFA.


A state can aspire.
 

james5001

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Messages
11,503
If you're changing the Preamble you may as well change the whole thing.
 
Top