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The Rape of Nanking, December 1937 - January 1938


owedtojoy

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Feb 27, 2010
Messages
45,509
Seventy-Five years ago this month, one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century wound down to a close.

On December 13th 1937, the Chinese city of Nanking fell to the invading Japanese. There followed about 2 months of murders and mass rapes carried out in the most appalling and brutal fashion. It is estimated that some 80,000 acts of rape were committed, many were photographed, and most of the women murdered afterwards.

The murders and rapes were documented by many westerners who were present, and finally published in a book The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang in 1997. Westerners escaped interference, though many sensed the hatred of the Japanese towards them.

Japanese airplanes sank the US gunboat Panay on the Yangtze nearby. Though the military apologised for their "mistake", many interpreted it as a warning against unwelcome interference.

A few Japanese were tried and hanged after the war for war crimes, but the numbers convicted were far less than the total number of perpetrators. One man who escaped trial was the Emperor's younger brother Prince Asaka, who served as the nominal Japanese military commander, though he was not connected with any particular act (AFAIK). He escaped because of the immunity granted to the Japanese royal family by the Americans in 1945.

The total death toll was put by Chang as between 250,000 and 300,000. This is contested by Japanese "revisionist" historian who claim the tales of massacres are Chinese propaganda. Iris Chang became so depressed by what she had uncovered, and suffered because of harassment and hate mail from Japanese ultra-nationalists. She eventually took her own life in 2005.

It is well to remember that Nanking was only the worst of many, many atrocities committed by Japanese forces in China. In total, China lost some 15 million civilian casualties between 1931 and 1945.

Today, no one denies Japan the right to mourn the dead of Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo. However, it should also be also recalled that Japan adopts a "never apologise/ never explain" attitude to the atrocities committed by its forces in WWII, and demands to be treated purely as a victim. It is not surprising this causes much resentment in China and other SE Asian countries like Korea and Vietnam.
 
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IvoShandor

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To be euphemistic, the Japanese attitude does them no credit and compares unfavourably with the Germans who took it on the chin. There may be some truth to Japanese claims that Chang's number were inflated, but still-what of it? If "only" 100 000,or less died at Nanking, it woud still be a foul crime of extraordinary magnitude. But there is a horrible strain of self-exculpatory denial and self-pity which was never extinguished in the way it was in Germany. The Germans took several decades before they felt able to talk about their own sufferings-the rapes and murders of the Red Army,the firebombings of the Allies,but in Japan, thanks to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the whinging and whaboutery began early and has never ceased.
 

Hungry Dodo

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Joined
Feb 11, 2012
Messages
637
And?

The Americans have Okinawa despite the 200,000 tonnes of bombs and the Japanese/The Servile State are their allies sabre rattling at China
 

TiredOfBeingTired

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Oct 13, 2011
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3,455
I read the Irish Chang book and its a terrible story.

It's possibly the only example of any genuine benefit of waving a Nazi Swastika.
John Rabe was a Siemens worker and a card-carrying Nazi.
The party badge was one of the few things that stopped the Japanese soldiers in their tracks.

Rabe was a bit like a Oskar Schindler.
Neither fared well after the wall.
"In 1948, the citizens of Nanking learned of the very dire situation of the Rabe family in occupied Germany and they quickly raised a very large sum of money, equivalent to $US 2000 (US$ 19,000 in 2013). The city mayor himself went to Germany, via Switzerland where he bought a large amount of food for the Rabe family. From mid 1948 until the communist takeover the people of Nanking also sent a food package each month, for which Rabe in many letters expressed deep gratitude"
John Rabe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Niall996

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Dec 5, 2011
Messages
12,142
Yep. I always felt that the Japanese more or less got away with Nanking. It remains a relatively unknown event. The acts committed by the Japanese were just astonishly evil. The world really needs to keep this out in the open and Japan needs to address it properly. It's an outrage that they still blank it.
 

Carl Claudius

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Dec 21, 2012
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I read the Irish Chang book and its a terrible story.

It's possibly the only example of any genuine benefit of waving a Nazi Swastika.
John Rabe was a Siemens worker and a card-carrying Nazi.
The party badge was one of the few things that stopped the Japanese soldiers in their tracks.

Rabe was a bit like a Oskar Schindler.
Neither fared well after the wall.
"In 1948, the citizens of Nanking learned of the very dire situation of the Rabe family in occupied Germany and they quickly raised a very large sum of money, equivalent to $US 2000 (US$ 19,000 in 2013). The city mayor himself went to Germany, via Switzerland where he bought a large amount of food for the Rabe family. From mid 1948 until the communist takeover the people of Nanking also sent a food package each month, for which Rabe in many letters expressed deep gratitude"
John Rabe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

there is a movie about him.
 

rainmaker

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Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
21,883
And?

The Americans have Okinawa despite the 200,000 tonnes of bombs and the Japanese/The Servile State are their allies sabre rattling at China
That's some neat gymnastics right there. You took a horrific Japanese crime against humanity in China and managed to squeeze an anti American jibe out of it - completely ignoring the sheer scale of suffering at the same time.

Well done you.
 

jpc

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Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
4,339
And?

The Americans have Okinawa despite the 200,000 tonnes of bombs and the Japanese/The Servile State are their allies sabre rattling at China
Why are the Americans there in the first place?
 

Hewson

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Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
8,338
Seventy-Five years ago this month, one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century wound down to a close.

On December 13th 1937, the Chinese city of Nanking fell to the invading Japanese. There followed about 2 months of murders and mass rapes carried out in the most appalling and brutal fashion. It is estimated that some 80,000 acts of rape were committed, many were photographed, and most of the women murdered afterwards.

The murders and rapes were documented by many westerners who were present, and finally published in a book The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang in 1997. Westerners escaped interference, though many sensed the hatred of the Japanese towards them.

Japanese airplanes sank the US gunboat Panay on the Yangtze nearby. Though the military apologised for their "mistake", many interpreted it as a warning against unwelcome interference.

A few Japanese were tried and hanged after the war for war crimes, but the numbers convicted were far less than the total number of perpetrators. One man who escaped trial was the Emperor's younger brother Prince Asaka, who served as the nominal Japanese military commander, though he was not connected with any particular act (AFAIK). He escaped because of the immunity granted to the Japanese royal family by the Americans in 1945.

The total death toll was put by Chang as between 250,000 and 300,000. This is contested by Japanese "revisionist" historian who claim the tales of massacres are Chinese propaganda. Iris Chang became so depressed by what she had uncovered, and suffered because of harassment and hate mail from Japanese ultra-nationalists. She eventually took her own life in 2005.

It is well to remember that Nanking was only the worst of many, many atrocities committed by Japanese forces in China. In total, China lost some 15 million civilian casualties between 1931 and 1945.

Today, no one denies Japan the right to mourn the dead of Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo. However, it should also be also recalled that Japan adopts a "never apologise/ never explain" attitude to the atrocities committed by its forces in WWII, and demands to be treated purely as a victim. It is not surprising this causes much resentment in China and other SE Asian countries like Korea and Vietnam.
The savagery of the Japanese forces in China is unmatched in history since. The simmering dispute over islands in the South China sea is a reminder of the enmity between the two nations.

Rampant, unfettered and blinkered nationalism, devoid of historical perspective, is as dangerous as any natural disaster.
 

sgtharper

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Apr 20, 2008
Messages
11,003
And?

The Americans have Okinawa despite the 200,000 tonnes of bombs and the Japanese/The Servile State are their allies sabre rattling at China
Is there an interpreter in the house?
 

pippakin

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Feb 22, 2010
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9,665
Japanese culture of surrender being shameful and losers less than human is the root of such atrocities. I can understand the sense of outrage and impotence many Chinese still feel
 

Hungry Dodo

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Joined
Feb 11, 2012
Messages
637
That's some neat gymnastics right there. You took a horrific Japanese crime against humanity in China and managed to squeeze an anti American jibe out of it - completely ignoring the sheer scale of suffering at the same time.

Well done you.
So thousands of Okinawan women didn't get raped by your heroes?
They didn't drop hundreds of thousands of tonnes of high explosives on a largely civilian population?
They're as pure as the driven snow and have a clear conscience?
Spare me you Pingfan gobdaw?
Does Dr. Shiro Ishii ring a bell you ghoul?
 

Hungry Dodo

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The Field Marshal

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Aug 27, 2009
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44,414
That's some neat gymnastics right there. You took a horrific Japanese crime against humanity in China and managed to squeeze an anti American jibe out of it - completely ignoring the sheer scale of suffering at the same time.

Well done you.
The Americans gave immunity to Japanese war criminals in exchange for biological warfare information obtained in the most hideously cruel conditions imaginable on Chinese prisoners. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirō_Ishii . Hideous human experimentation by the Japanese army doctors involving over 3000 deaths at unit 731 all condoned by the victorious Americans
Unit 731 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Mitsui2

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Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
33,382
That's some neat gymnatics right there. You took a horrific Japanese crime against humanity in China and managed to squeeze an anti American jibe out of it - completely ignoring the sheer scale of suffering at the same time.

Well done you.
To be fair, rain, it would only be so praiseworthy if it somehow managed not to look stupid, ill-informed and whataboutery-ish.

So that's just three fails.

Cut the man/woman some slack!
 

Mitsui2

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Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
33,382
The Americans gave immunity to Japanese war criminals in exchange for biological warfare information obtained in the most hideously cruel conditions imaginable on Chinese prisoners. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirō_Ishii . Hideous human experimentation by the Japanese army doctors involving over 3000 deaths at unit 731 all condoned by the victorious Americans
Unit 731 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ah, come on, Marsh, you wouldn't be saying that if the Vatican had done it.
 

Lain2016

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Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
7,713
Seventy-Five years ago this month, one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century wound down to a close.

On December 13th 1937, the Chinese city of Nanking fell to the invading Japanese. There followed about 2 months of murders and mass rapes carried out in the most appalling and brutal fashion. It is estimated that some 80,000 acts of rape were committed, many were photographed, and most of the women murdered afterwards.

The murders and rapes were documented by many westerners who were present, and finally published in a book The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang in 1997. Westerners escaped interference, though many sensed the hatred of the Japanese towards them.

Japanese airplanes sank the US gunboat Panay on the Yangtze nearby. Though the military apologised for their "mistake", many interpreted it as a warning against unwelcome interference.

A few Japanese were tried and hanged after the war for war crimes, but the numbers convicted were far less than the total number of perpetrators. One man who escaped trial was the Emperor's younger brother Prince Asaka, who served as the nominal Japanese military commander, though he was not connected with any particular act (AFAIK). He escaped because of the immunity granted to the Japanese royal family by the Americans in 1945.

The total death toll was put by Chang as between 250,000 and 300,000. This is contested by Japanese "revisionist" historian who claim the tales of massacres are Chinese propaganda. Iris Chang became so depressed by what she had uncovered, and suffered because of harassment and hate mail from Japanese ultra-nationalists. She eventually took her own life in 2005.

It is well to remember that Nanking was only the worst of many, many atrocities committed by Japanese forces in China. In total, China lost some 15 million civilian casualties between 1931 and 1945.

Today, no one denies Japan the right to mourn the dead of Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo. However, it should also be also recalled that Japan adopts a "never apologise/ never explain" attitude to the atrocities committed by its forces in WWII, and demands to be treated purely as a victim. It is not surprising this causes much resentment in China and other SE Asian countries like Korea and Vietnam.
How can we be sure such claims were not just propaganda; all sides claim their enemies are the very devil?

In WW1 the allies claimed the germans were making glue out of dead Belgin babies, no one today takes this seriously yet we readily accept these figures which seem bloated.

The histerography on such claims need to be investigated, was it just usefull propaganda?
 
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Joined
Jan 16, 2013
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I tend to separate the Japanese government from Japanese ppl. Everytime a Japanese leader visits that Yasukuni Shrine, it will always be on Chinese news and condemned strongly. However, when a Japanese leader went to Nanjing and bowed, not on TV. Chinese always hear about how Japanese deny the Nanjing Massacre, how they change their history books, while there are lots of Japanese who actually are helping victims, esp, those lawyers who taking the cases of comfort women.
So as a Chinese, I feel sick about the propaganda which wants to give Chinese an impression that "all Japanese deny the war and they are not feeling guilty". We are taught to hate Japanese since very young, it is not like directly, but indirectly in history classes. "we should hate Japanese, they killed a lot of Chinese, who loves Japanese are traitors." However, when I ask them who in specific they are hating, since almost all those soldiers are dead now, they are just being silent.
So who should be responsible for the awful Sino-Japan relationship nowadays? I doubt it is Japan alone.
 
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