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The relative failure of Plaid Cymru


FloatingVoterTralee

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Even if the forthcoming Scottish independence referendum is resoundingly defeated, Alex Salmond and the SNP have succeeded in redrawing the country's political map and giving nationalist issues an impetus in London to an extent rarely seen since 1918. In contrast to the Caledonian situation, however, Plaid Cymru has failed to make any significant breakthrough since devolution, its support still largely confined to Welsh-speaking districts, falling behind in support levels not merely to Labour, but also the Welsh Conservatives. So, why has the party failed to convince English-speaking Welsh about the merits of parity of political and fiscal autonomy with Scotland, which could then be leveraged for ever-increasing status. Even Northern Irish parties are all agreed on seeking increased legislative powers to improve the Assembly's status, so are Plaid woes down to poor leadership or a lack of real national consciousness among the Welsh?
 


DuineEile

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Wales is full of West Brit types. A defeated nation.
Your premise may or may not be correct. Your choice of language is however ill informed.

The Welsh ARE the original British, as opposed to the Anglo Saxon English, or the Caledonian and Pictish Scots.

Of course they are Brits. It is the English who are not.


D
 

diaspora-mick

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I think the question why there is no desire for independence.
History it seems is to blame ...

Wales has been subjugated far longer and more thoroughly than Scotland.
It was welded to the English hip back sometime around 1284 and its legal system was aligned to that of England.
From that time on, it was a mere "principality" of England.

Scotland remained a separate kingdom with its own parliament until around 1707 or thereabouts and even after political "union" with England & Wales it still retained its own legal system and some vestiges of "autonomy" which the Welsh had long since lost.

So it's not really surprising that the movement for dissolving the union is stronger in Scotland than in Wales.
 

SilverSpurs

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North Wales in particular was used to rehouse the English poor post WW2 which has diluted the Welsh identity and created a large pool of people who depend on state handouts and as such are Labour voters, that is one strong reason.
The second strong reason is that Wales is simply not economically viable since the decline of coalmining and manufacturing. An independent Wales would have to fundamentally restructure its society with the people in 'the valleys' abandoned.
 

NMunsterman

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History it seems is to blame ...

Wales has been subjugated far longer and more thoroughly than Scotland.
It was welded to the English hip back sometime around 1284 and its legal system was aligned to that of England.
From that time on, it was a mere "principality" of England.

Scotland remained a separate kingdom with its own parliament until around 1707 or thereabouts and even after political "union" with England & Wales it still retained its own legal system and some vestiges of "autonomy" which the Welsh had long since lost.

So it's not really surprising that the movement for dissolving the union is stronger in Scotland than in Wales.

Very true.

I wonder however, if for example, there were no separate Welsh teams in soccer and rugby (or in any sport in fact) - but a combined team with Britain/England instead - would this result in a spike in the fortunes of Plaid Cymru ?

Perfidious Albion.
 

Glaucon

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Ireland was in bondage for hundreds of years; it never tamed our desire for freedom.
The Welsh are a conquered and defeated people; without their language, they're little more than English.
 

Cruineach

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Much of the emotive language here is covering up the main source of Plaid's failures, I believe. The source is that they were run very poorly by leaders who simply didn't have the strength to combat Labour and target their strong support base among the Welsh working classes. I believe fully that if we Scots became independent, the Welsh in the South would fight to gain as much autonomy as they can.
 

Northsideman

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Ireland was in bondage for hundreds of years; it never tamed our desire for freedom.
The Welsh are a conquered and defeated people; without their language, they're little more than English.
Here's their celebrated Prince maybe he will save them:D

 

Cruineach

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At least he speaks a bit of Welsh. I doubt fellows like Edward the First of Britain in the early 20th century made the effort.
 

Northsideman

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At least he speaks a bit of Welsh. I doubt fellows like Edward the First of Britain in the early 20th century made the effort.
He also speaks a fair bit of BS which I'm sure the trees appreciate
 

Ren84

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Your premise may or may not be correct. Your choice of language is however ill informed.

The Welsh ARE the original British, as opposed to the Anglo Saxon English, or the Caledonian and Pictish Scots.

Of course they are Brits. It is the English who are not.


D
British is mere code for English and to placate the Scottish, Welsh and Irish into believing they are equal members with the English. Complete fantasy of course. The Welsh are a thoroughly defeated people, and cannot see themselves independent of the English anymore.
 

Cruineach

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He also speaks a fair bit of BS which I'm sure the trees appreciate
Rather like Nick Clegg, you know.

British is mere code for English and to placate the Scottish, Welsh and Irish into believing they are equal members with the English. Complete fantasy of course. The Welsh are a thoroughly defeated people, and cannot see themselves independent of the English anymore.
The word "British" has been unfortunately misappropriated over the last few hundred years in that it has become a code word for English. An interesting effect I've noticed though is the death of the "English" national identity in favour of a generic "British" one. The Welsh, Scots and Irish all kept their strong regional identities but the English just turned into "Britain", meaning that the provinces of the union have a similar relationship to England as the various republics of Russia.

As defeated as the Welsh were, it's remarkable that they have resisted for so long given that, until recently, they hadn't had control over their own laws for 700 years. You've got to cut them a bit of slack. They've been resisting invasions and foreign control since the time of the Romans and later the Normans.
 
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Cruineach

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Indeed. Some speculate that he will step aside in favour of the ever-popular Wills and Kate. I really hope he doesn't though and turns out to be a terrible, power hungry bastard.
 

tokkie

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British is mere code for English and to placate the Scottish, Welsh and Irish into believing they are equal members with the English. Complete fantasy of course. The Welsh are a thoroughly defeated people, and cannot see themselves independent of the English anymore.
Not thoroughly. Their language has survived.
 

PeacefulViking

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Ireland was in bondage for hundreds of years; it never tamed our desire for freedom.
The Welsh are a conquered and defeated people; without their language, they're little more than English.
Are not the Irish pretty the same as the English as well? And do not the Welsh use Welsh more than Irish use Irish?
 

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