The Rev Karl Barth on Comrade Stalin.

SevenStars

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The Rev Karl Barth is without doubt the most influential and widely considered both within Protestant and Roman Catholic circles probably the greatest theologian of the 20 th century had this to say in 1949 as hysteria mounted at the beginning of the cold war...

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Barth"]Karl Barth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Wikipedia-karlbarth01.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Wikipedia-karlbarth01.jpg/220px-Wikipedia-karlbarth01.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/a/a8/Wikipedia-karlbarth01.jpg/220px-Wikipedia-karlbarth01.jpg[/ame]

"It is pertinent not to omit to discriminate in our view of contemporary Communism between its totalitarian atrocities as such and the positive intention behind them. And if one tries to do that, one cannot say of Communism what one was forced to say of Nazism ten years ago - that what it means and intends is pure unreason, the product of madness and crime. It would be quite absurd to mention in the same breath the philosophy of Marxism and the “ideology” of the Third Reich, to mention a man of the stature of Joseph Stalin in the same breath as such charlatans as Hitler, Goering, Hess, Goebbels, Himmler, Ribbentrop, Rosenberg, Streicher, etc. What has been tackled in Soviet Russia - albeit with very dirty and bloody hands and in a way that rightly shocks us - is, after all, a constructive idea, the solution of a problem which is a serious and burning problem for us as well, and which we with our clean hands have not yet tackled anything like energetically enough: the social problem."

And while Popes were being hysterical he said this...

"In its relationship to Christianity, Communism, as distinguished from Nazism, has not done, and by its very nature cannot do, one thing: it has never made the slightest attempt to reinterpret or to falsify Christianity, or to shroud itself in a Christian garment.... There is nothing of the false prophet about it. It is not anti-Christian."

"Class contradiction, says socialism, is the daily crime of capitalism. This system of production must therefore fall, especially its underlying principle: private property - not private property in general, but private ownership of the mean of production.... the boundless competition between individual producers must fall; and the state, the whole, must itself become the producer and therefore the owner of the means of production. Jesus is more socialist than the socialists.... Jesus’ view of property is this: Property is sin, because property is self-seeking."
 


Old Mr Grouser

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"It would be quite absurd to mention in the same breath the philosophy of Marxism and the “ideology” of the Third Reich, to mention a man of the stature of Joseph Stalin in the same breath as such charlatans as Hitler, Goering, Hess, Goebbels, Himmler, Ribbentrop, Rosenberg, Streicher, etc.

"In its relationship to Christianity, Communism, as distinguished from Nazism, has not done, and by its very nature cannot do, one thing: it has never made the slightest attempt to reinterpret or to falsify Christianity, or to shroud itself in a Christian garment.... There is nothing of the false prophet about it. It is not anti-Christian."

... Jesus is more socialist than the socialists.... Jesus’ view of property is this: Property is sin, because property is self-seeking."


What a depraved and demented cleric. If he had been Catholic he'd have had a top job at the Vatican.

But I see that some Russians want Stalin to be canonised:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPA-eDaB4GM]YouTube - Saint Joseph Stalin[/ame]
 
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Balatro

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By the same token, right libertarianism could sustain a completely just and compassionate society in Heaven because the inhabitants of Heaven are (presumably) free of the kinds human limitations that caused all governmental/economic systems on Earth to decline into corruption and tyranny. In other words, the need for a socialist-like system would be preempted there. It therefore can’t be the case that a system which is workable at that higher level of existence is NECESSARILY also workable on Earth. No, we can’t look firstly to theologians and prophets in this area. (I dare say that the dream of a more civilized social order isn‘t exclusively theirs. In fact, they‘ve often times stood in opposition to that goal. )

The genocidal brutality of Western corporatocracy is undeniable. However, the Soviet Union’s record is too mixed to serve as a model for the future. Besides, the Bolsheviks were but one faction of Marxism. Therefore, we could just as easily take inspiration from the embryonic council communism of the early years of the Revolution.

A lot of people have been conditioned to think of socialism and capitalism in rigid, absolute terms. In reality, of course, there have always existed within both of those broad groupings many divergent and antagonistic tendencies. Also, alternative models like syndicalism usually don’t get much attention.
 

ne0ica

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What a depraved and demented cleric. If he had been Catholic he'd have had a top job at the Vatican.

But I see that some Russians want Stalin to be canonised:

YouTube - Saint Joseph Stalin
How would he got the top job if he was Catholic. Do you actually know anything about the Catholic Church other than the rubbish you hear at your bible meetings.
 

SevenStars

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But I see that some Russians want Stalin to be canonised:
Not just some...Plenty...And given that schism between ROCOR and the MP has been sorted it should happen soon enough...
 

ne0ica

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Not just some...Plenty...And given that schism between ROCOR and the MP has been sorted it should happen soon enough...
A bit of nostalgia for good old Uncle Joe

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn7Yh78h4dg&feature=fvw]YouTube - Stalin Nostalgia - Russia[/ame]
 

Old Mr Grouser

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Do you actually know anything about the Catholic Church other than the rubbish you hear at your bible meetings.
I'm sad to say that the rubbish that infuriated me was the rubbish that I was hearing as a Catholic from the 1970s on - until, by the grace of God and only by the grace of God, I left the RCC and joined an evangelical church.
 

Cael

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"Class contradiction, says socialism, is the daily crime of capitalism. This system of production must therefore fall, especially its underlying principle: private property - not private property in general, but private ownership of the mean of production.... the boundless competition between individual producers must fall; and the state, the whole, must itself become the producer and therefore the owner of the means of production. Jesus is more socialist than the socialists.... Jesus’ view of property is this: Property is sin, because property is self-seeking."
Obviously, the Rev. Barth was a true follower of Christ. I also consider property to be sin, as it is the perversion of desire.

I would certainly regard Jesus as one of the great Communist philosophers.
 
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Old Mr Grouser

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Obviously, the Rev. Barth was a true follower of Christ. I also consider property to be sin, as it is the perversion of desire.

I would certainly regard Jesus as one of the great Communist philosophers.
"I would certainly regard Jesus as one of the great Communist philosophers." :mad:

This is the style of Post Modernist thinking that is destroying Western Culture.

Instead of looking at reality you look inside your head, and to the images you have there.

You reason like someone that has served time in Maynooth.
 

Cael

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"I would certainly regard Jesus as one of the great Communist philosophers." :mad:

This is the style of Post Modernist thinking that is destroying Western Culture.

Instead of looking at reality you look inside your head, and to the images you have there.

You reason like someone that has served time in Maynooth.
Well, Stalin would only sent the rich man to the gulag. Jesus would send him to burn in hell for all of eternity. Why, because the hoarding of personal wealth is sin.
 

Old Mr Grouser

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Well, Stalin would only sent the rich man to the gulag. Jesus would send him to burn in hell for all of eternity. Why, because the hoarding of personal wealth is sin.
You've been brainwashed by the RCC, Cael. 'Give all your money to the Church and Heaven is guaranteed'.

Jesus threw the money-changers from the Temple because they were trading on sacred ground, and they had taken over the only space, at the very edge of the Temple, where non-Jewish believers were permitted to pray.

In the instance of the rich young man it was a matter of 'being perfect', and one is bound to wonder if perhaps it was the wealth that owned the young man.

Anyhow, the topic of the thread is Uncle Joe, a very evil and ungodly man. But it's also an excuse for a song from Paul Robeson -

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtU3vUOa2sw&feature=related]YouTube - Soviet/ USSR Anthem in English [by Paul Robeson][/ame]
 

Cael

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Anyhow, the topic of the thread is Uncle Joe, a very evil and ungodly man. But it's also an excuse for a song from Paul Robeson -
The topic of the thread is the Rev. Barth's opinion of Stalin. And, he didnt seem to think that Stalin was evil at all - indeed, he seemed to think that Stalin was doing God's work. I would tend to agree.
 

west'sawake

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Communism failed because it could not fulfill its own prophecy, that the State would eventually wither away. Once any State or ism, (I include relentless consumerism), attacks either directly or insiduously: private property, religion, and the family based on heterosexual monogamy (The sexual revolution has done for Marxism that no armed or political revolution could make the family a collection of semi autonomous units dependant on a consumerist and functional state), it inevitably becomes too powerful, since the very bulwarks that checked its power are shelled out or made impotent and the State effectively becomes the primary carer and educator.

Barth then was wrong to say Communism was not anti Christian, Religion, namely Christianity was seen by Marx as the opiate of the people, and Marx would no doubt see victory in the militant secularism that has come to dominate national and transnational institutions.

However, in weakening those bulwarks the State or Supra State as in this post Nationalist Europe will in effect sound the death knell of its present form, i.e. it cannot be self sustaining, it cannot support or pay for the social costs of all who depend on it, and will either implode or be forced to face reality that the old welfarist, soft Marxist, deconstructionist order has failed.

The soft Marxist or Supra State's (including Multinationals) reach has been fuelled by something that was finite and had to end, i.e. credit that was not wealth based, and welfare that was tax dependant. The post war credit boom has been shown to have been unsustainable with no real wealth increase to match it, thus the dawning that many banks have worthless balance sheets, derivatives that are useless as junk bonds and despearte quantitative easing on and on similarly with less workers as is happening in Europe, the tax base falls and the burden on the young becomes intolerable and the cost of the Welfare state too much.

Barth like too many Theologians tried to 'ism'ise theology, in effect he took Christ out deconstructed Him, and moulded Him the way the Liberation Theologians did to suit the Spirit of the Age. And essentially the Spirit of the Age is Anti Christ, and it passes, deflated, exhausted, and dying, since it is not the Spirit that gives life.

The irony is that the striking workers in France have yet to waken up to what is wrong, be it their corporatist French failures or E.U. illusion. Ditto our own Irish bubble corporatism, Ditto Germany, though if she does manage to export in such volumes to India and China she can at best prolongue the inevitable for another generation. Then again China too will be a basket case soon enough when her bubble bursts and even more men go crazy looking for a mate in a country that is practising unborn female genocide.
 

Cael

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Barth then was wrong to say Communism was not anti Christian, Religion, namely Christianity was seen by Marx as the opiate of the people, and Marx would no doubt see victory in the militant secularism that has come to dominate national and transnational institutions.

You are wrong here a chara. No society has very been as fanatically religious as this one. Only its not Christianity or Islam that today's West adores, but the Commodity. Commodity Fetishism is the religion of Europe and America today. Its a primitive, anti-humanist religion, that requires the human sacrifice of billions of victims. To say its a regression into barbarity would be to do a grave injustice to the historical barbarians, who were actually quite civilised.
 

TaxHavenSite

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You are wrong here a chara. No society has very been as fanatically religious as this one. Only its not Christianity or Islam that today's West adores, but the Commodity. Commodity Fetishism is the religion of Europe and America today. Its a primitive, anti-humanist religion, that requires the human sacrifice of billions of victims. To say its a regression into barbarity would be to do a grave injustice to the historical barbarians, who were actually quite civilised.
So By file-sharing a person is fighting the commodity fetishism?
 

Cael

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Barth like too many Theologians tried to 'ism'ise theology, in effect he took Christ out deconstructed Him, and moulded Him the way the Liberation Theologians did to suit the Spirit of the Age. And essentially the Spirit of the Age is Anti Christ, and it passes, deflated, exhausted, and dying, since it is not the Spirit that gives life.
Jesus had a very definite ideology - like every speaking being. I dont see any reason not to deconstruct that ideology. Indeed, we greatly deepen our appreciation of the teachings of Christ by giving them a deconstructive reading. The spirit of capitalism is anti-Christ, and you might be justified in saying that capitalism has been the spirit of the West for the last 300 years or so. But, I believe a new Spirit is coming into its own, the Spirit of the Communion of Comrades, the Spirit of Communism, i.e. the Holy Spirit.
 

Cael

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So By file-sharing a person is fighting the commodity fetishism?
Only if you delete it before you read it...just joking, yes, anything that undermines the reverence we show towards commodities is good.
 

TaxHavenSite

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Only if you delete it before you read it...just joking, yes, anything that undermines the reverence we show towards commodities is good.
So in large numbers,we could basically spread the money around equally,by not spending all our money on things that got to the wealthy,and large corporations,and saving money?
 

SevenStars

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Barth like too many Theologians tried to 'ism'ise theology, in effect he took Christ out deconstructed Him, and moulded Him the way the Liberation Theologians did to suit the Spirit of the Age. And essentially the Spirit of the Age is Anti Christ, and it passes, deflated, exhausted, and dying, since it is not the Spirit that gives life.
Your post demonstrates remarkable ignorance on nearly every line....But lets start here....

Have you ever read Karl Barth? From the above it would seem evident that you havent....Indeed Irish Roman Catholics rarely if ever read any Protestant or Orthodox theologian (though somehow you all seem to be experts on both Protestantism and Orthodoxy :rolleyes:) outside of C.S. Lewis who I suspect you lot like so much because he writes with the same trite smuggness of your beloved G.K. Chesterton.

Barth's writings were a reaction to and rejection the liberal social theology of much of the 19 th century that sought to strip Christianity of its supernatural content and turn it into a social code similar to Kantian ethics. He continually stressed (possibly overly much) God's transcendence and the radical falleness of man.

Liberation theology is a Roman Catholic thing, Barth was a pastor in the Swiss Reformed Church, so mixing him up with that is bizzare...He praises the Soviet Union and its great leader Joseph Stalin because unlike Liberation theology it doesnt claim for itself a divine mandate and therefore the dangers of idolitary that are part and parcel of a "Theocratic order"...Indeed Liberation theology seems to me to be a "left wing" version of the old confusion between what is of this world and the Kingdom of God (which is not of this world) which very much exists on the "right wing" of Roman Catholicism aswell.
 


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