The Rise and Fall of Empires

Barroso

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I'd agree with that. We could be at some kind of crossroads. We can now descend into factionalism and create a hollowed out form of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire with twin capitals and a hellish bureaucracy ever seeking to grow its own influence. That empire matches the EU in its current form like no other.
I'd suggest that the Heiliges Römisches Reich - the Holy Roman Empire - might be a better fit.
 


parentheses

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Yes, but just as Rome emerged from an earlier tribal group then what was Rome pretty much submerged into the Byzantine Empire so it is probably doing Byzantium a disservice by counting them as the Roman Empire.
The term "Byzantine empire" was only created by historians in the 18th or 19th centuries AFAIK. The "Byzantines" called their Empire Roman.
 

Barroso

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Yes, but just as Rome emerged from an earlier tribal group then what was Rome pretty much submerged into the Byzantine Empire so it is probably doing Byzantium a disservice by counting them as the Roman Empire.
But they called themselves Rumi; even the Turks continued to do so, right up until Constantinople became Istanbul, IIRC.
 

Cailleach

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Good to see a considered, intelligent thread. My own tuppence worth is that, for some time, I see clear parallels between the orgiastic excesses at the end of the Roman Empire and the same - now accompanied by global imagery available via the net - in terms of all sorts of current excesses. The hegemony of consumerism is the economic petard upon which it will be hoist.
 

owedtojoy

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The term "Byzantine empire" was only created by historians in the 18th or 19th centuries AFAIK. The "Byzantines" called their Empire Roman.
They called themselves Roman, but they mostly spoke Greek, and their Church was the Greek Orthodox Church.

But the point is valid ... Gibbon for example continued to write about the "Fall of the Roman Empire" until its final end with the Fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks in 1453.

However most modern historians do not regard the Empire that fell in 1453 as the same as the "Roman Empire" of Augustus, Constantine, Justinian and Heraclitus. Somewhere along the way it became a Medieval successor state to the Roman Empire like France or England. It became uniform in religion and culture, confined to Greece and Asia Minor, unlike its diverse predecessor.

Byzantine Empire is a handy name for this successor state.

PS The fall of Constantinople to fellow-Christians from the West in 1204 (the "Fourth Crusade" of Latin Catholics) was probably the main event that weakened the Byzantines so their Empire eventually collapsed.
 
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owedtojoy

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Good to see a considered, intelligent thread. My own tuppence worth is that, for some time, I see clear parallels between the orgiastic excesses at the end of the Roman Empire and the same - now accompanied by global imagery available via the net - in terms of all sorts of current excesses. The hegemony of consumerism is the economic petard upon which it will be hoist.
I think there is merit in the argument that we are watching the beginning of the end of the American Empire, under one of the weakest and most worthless leaders it has ever put into high office.

The end of Empires come about for a multitude of reasons, but almost always human incompetence is very much in the mix.
 

bormotello

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I think there is merit in the argument that we are watching the beginning of the end of the American Empire, under one of the weakest and most worthless leaders it has ever put into high office.

The end of Empires come about for a multitude of reasons, but almost always human incompetence is very much in the mix.
Weak leader is threat for empire only if whole system is rotten. Roman empire successfully survived Caligula and USSR survived Khrushchev. 77 years old Bloomberg for presidency shows how pathetic democrats are now.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
They don't need one in the US. AIPAC have owned most presidents either directly or indirectly for decades.

Donald Trump, Bill Clinton and others have to be photographed wearing a prayer shawl, yarmulka, and are given an opportunity to show how pro-israeli they are in presidential campaigns. An opportunity which cannot be ignored as the candidate who refuses will then be attacked mercilessly by AIPAC via politicians, media, and of course Netanyahu and the Knesset which would dent their hopes immediately.
 


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